The Manufacturing Executive
The Manufacturing Executive

Episode · 1 year ago

Finding the Fit: How the Seller and Buyer Can Work Together so Everyone Wins w/ Ian Altman

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Back in May, I wrote an article entitled Summer Reading 12 lessons from 12 books for 12 weeks. The author of one of those 12 books, Ian Altman, is my guest on this episode of The Manufacturing Executive!

A bestselling author and B2B growth expert, Ian started, sold, and grew his prior companies from zero to over $1 billion in value. He has since spent years researching how executives make decisions. Ian's modern approach has helped many businesses turn marginal growth into explosive growth and thrive where their competitors struggled merely to survive.

Ian and I talk about:

  • Why you should flip your sales message
  • The three questions you need to ask to make an informed decision
  • How to weed out wrong-fit clients
  • How to pivot away from in-person meetings during COVID-19

Resources we talked about:

To ensure that you never miss an episode of The Manufacturing Show, subscribe on Apple Podcasts, or Spotify, or here.

If we know that that's how people make decisions. What problems it solved? Why do we need it? What's likely ICOME OF RESOLVED? Then what the heck are we doing by leading with here's what we do as a company. In Years Ow our widget worked. Welcome to the manufacturing executive podcast, where we explore the strategies and experiences that are driving midsize manufacturers forward. Here you'll discover new insights from passionate manufacturing leaders who have compelling stories to share about their successes and struggles, and you'll learn from be tob sales and marketing experts about how to apply actionable business development strategies inside your business. Let's get into the show. Welcome to another episode of the Manufacturing Executive podcast. I'm Joe Sullivan, your host and a CO founder of the Industrial Marketing Agency grilla seventy six so back in May I wrote an article titled Summer Reading Twelve Lessons From twelve books for twelve weeks and in this article I pulled standout quotes from twelve of my all time favorite business books. Today I'm pretty darn excited because my guest is the author of one of those twelve books. So let me take a moment to introduce best selling author and BB growth expert Ian Altman. Ian Started, sold and grew his prior companies from zero to over one billion dollars in value. He has since spent years researching how executives make decisions. His modern approach has been instrumental in helping many businesses turn marginal growth into explosive growth and to help them thrive where their competitors struggled merely survive. In as a CO author of the best seller same side selling, now in its second edition, you can read hundreds of his articles on Forbes and ink Ian, as a founder of the same side selling academy, rated one of the top five sales development programs globally. And welcome to the show, Joe. Thanks for having me on and I'm flatter that see. Originally you said, Hey, I...

...wrote this thing about the top twelve books on business, and I was expecting you to say and none of those people were available, so I had seen here instead. Now you made the list and you are. Yeah, it's I can't remember exactly how I stumbled across the same side selling. I want to say I heard maybe you on a guess, as a guest on a podcast or something years, maybe five years ago or so. But the book was intriguing, I picked it up and immediately it became one of my favorites for a number of reasons which I want to get into today. But yeah, and it's, you know, among a few things I'd love to talk to you about. But first could you give our listeners a little bit of background on you, just, you know, build on the intro. Tell us how you wound up where you are today. Well, the big thing, I mean you talked about my work. I started my first company in one thousand nine hundred and ninety three. We became a fast fifty bany by thousand Nin hundred and ninety eight, some of the fifty fastest winning companies in the Washington DC region. We were also the only company on the list who was not a government defense contractor, and which was funny because once we had the list, would get all these inbound prospecting calls from people talking about what we needed for government contracting, where we're not a government contractor. No, No, you're number twenty one of the list. Yeah, we're we're not. We're not in that space. And we built a software company. Then starting in ninety eight in addition to the core consulting business that we had. And two thousand and five I got approached by some investment bankers at New York. We saw the company for cash and stock and I served as Managing Director of the parent company. We grew the value of the business from a hundred million dollars to actually about two billion dollars and a little over three years and I was flying two hundredzero miles a year. I wasn't spending time with my wife or my kids and I just thought after a while, why am I still doing this? I didn't have a good answer, so I stopped and people said what are you going to do now? And my first thought was, well, just do the same sort of thing. I'll just build a new company like that again. And one of my friends said, you know,...

...a bunch of us were talking in anytime our businesses were struggling to grow. You seem more excited about helping us fix something in our business then you were about your own business. Why don't you do that? And I said do what they said, well, help businesses grow, and I said, well, there's a business for that, and they said, well, you didn't necessarily need that, but most of us, yeah, we we go to experts in that type of space. And so I started speaking in most is probably two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine, something like that. Started speaking at events and I've been doing it ever since. And so speaking and coaching and guiding people and how they grow their businesses with integrity. It's frustrating for me to see the frustration that people have with sales and marketing, because it doesn't have to be that miserable experience. Sure, absolutely. And so what came first? The organization, same side selling and your training programmer. The book. So the book, the Book we release the first version, I think it was in two thousand and fourteen or two thousand and fifteen. And so definitely the the speaking. Everything came first. In fact, the first book I wrote was called upside down selling. That is a really short book that people can read that give them the gist of it's in essence. How do you take non sales people and teach them some of the core principles of same side selling? Before same side selling existed? And and then I met Jack quarrels, who spent two decades and purchasing a procurement and Jack actually attended a workshop I was delivering on Sales. It was the upside down selling workshop and I thought, wow, this is cool. Jack's coming to kind of see what's going on and see if you can learn something in the reality is that back had found that some of the vendors who they were willingly paying much higher fees too than other vendors. The common thread was they would say, Oh yeah, I went through this program with this Guy, e and Altman, and Jack won't understand what they were being taught and when...

...he came to the program he said, well, this is all integrity based. In fact, this makes perfect sense, this isn't dishonest, this is totally honest. And then we got to know each other and said there are no books written from the perspective of the buyer and the seller. We should do this and you know, fortunately it's resonated with quite a few people and enough to the point that, you know, we release a second edition about a year ago and it's been a very successful road and I just think that the title resonates with people. It's like, oh, that makes sense, like you can understand conceptually. Ah, I getting on in the same side not an opposing sides. Yeah, and I think that's what's so unique about it, having the perspective from procurement of the buyer side and then the sales side, because there's I see it all the time with in my world, in the world of my customers, where you're you know, it's it's like it's this battle in the sale of buyer versus seller and there's this race to the bottom on price and everything. Yeah, it's one versus the other, and the whole concept of your book, which I think you chose the perfect name for it, is let's work together to figure out if there's a fit, let's come to a common solution that makes sense for everybody. So I I just thought it was so unique in that sense. Thank you. Yeah, it's it's fascinating that almost every book that I've ever seen on sales either uses a battle metaphor or a game metaphor. Yeah, and if we take the take the second one first, in a game there's a winner and a loser, and in a battle the loser actually dies and then we wonder why there's this adversarial tension. Instead of we use the model or the metaphor of a puzzle it says, look, if you're putting a puzzle together, you each have to be able to see each other's pieces or you'll never be able to put the puzzle together. And if you're not trying to put the same puzzle together, then there's just not a good fit. And so it changes the dynamic where it's less about how do I convince this person that they need to buy from me? They just don't know it yet. Instead it changes it to look for the right organizations were a great fit. We're not there.

We're not a great fit for everybody. So I don't yet know if I can help you, but if you're facing these sorts of problems, I'm happy to learn more to see if I can help. Makes it so that you're instantly on the same side. Yeah, I love that. You know, one of the biggest issues that I see with sales in the manufacturing sector, where the listeners of this show live and our customers at gorilla, is, you know, they everybody defaults to talking about themselves. It's we do this and we sell that and our people are the best and our competitors are phonies. And you know, it's all about us, right, and what I love about what you call the same side pitch is that you kind of flipped the positioning statement or the sales message on its head and you lead with the customers issue as wonder if you could talk about that a little bit. Sure. Well, for starters, that example that you give of people always talking about themselves and here's what we do and here's the way we approach the world and everyone else is evil, is when companies suffer from what I like to call access displacement disorder, and that's where the person doing the selling believes that somehow the axis of the earth is shifted and now the world revolves around them, and it doesn't. In fact, if anything, the world revolves around our client. So one of the things in researching how executives making approved decisions, one of the things that we did is we rant, we run people through an exercise, and I've done this exercise with over tenzero executives around the world from companies ranging from, you know, relatively small startups under a million dollars in revenue to multibillion dollar multinationals, virtually everywhere on the planet except for the continent of Africa, and we haven't gone anywhere in the Antarctic so outside of that, I got you covered. And we ask people, well, let's see, some of your team comes to you and wants to spend money on this thing and call it a dessert and Blad, it doesn't matter what it's called, and they say we're going to spend twentyzeros. It takes forty five days for the vendor to implement it requires no resources whatsoever on our...

...part and they give us a ten year guarantee. The challenge I give people is one of the five questions you would have to have answered to be comfortable making an informed decision to either approve or deny that request. And I'll let people work in teams to come up with their list of five then then narrow it down to their top three. And they ask the same three questions everywhere, no matter the size the company, no matter where they are geographic in the three questions coming down to this. The first one is what problem does this solve? So think about you're going to spend money. Well, in a sense, what problems is solved, which is immediately followed by the second question of why do we need it, which is what's the what happens if we don't solve that issue. Mean, what's the problem and then what's the consequence of not solving that problem? And then the third question is what's the likely result or outcome if we make this investment? Well, so, and, by the way, the distant fourth, and all this is what are the alternatives? And the reason why it's a distant fourth is that if you answer those first three questions, well, the fourth one becomes implied. So the vendor who you're in total sync with about what problem they're trying to solve for you and why you need their help, who happens also be the same vendor who delivers the best, most likely outcome for you? That's your vendor. That's the one you pick. So if we know that that's how people make decisions, what problems it solved? Why do we need it? What's the likely thatcome of resolved? Then what the heck are we doing by leading with here's what we do as a company and here's how our widget works, and it's it's not a line with how people make decisions. So instead, what do we lead with? Well, our clients come to us when they're facing these types of problems that have these types of consequences for the right organizations. We deliver this specific type of outcome and now I need to disarm the notion that I'm just there to sell something. So I say, but the way we approach that isn't the right fit for everybody. I don't you know whether or not we can help you, but if those are issues you're facing, I'm happy to learn more to see whether or not we might be able to help. And that structure is what we call the same side pitch. It's in chapter for the book. If you search, if you Google same...

...side pitch, you can probably find excerpts of this for free. If you don't want to get the book, it doesn't matter. It's not about it's just more. If people have the book, they know where to where to find it in the book. So the idea is that we the same side pitch fallows this construct of entice, disarm and discover. So first we entice by sharing problems that we solve with dramatic or extraordinary results. We then disarm the notion that we're just there to sell something and then we trigger a discovery phase to learn more about their situation to see whether that we might be able to help. So yeah, it's a great model a great infrastructure for doing it, and I can see. I love the puzzle piece analogy, because if you, if you can just blatantly say these are the types of companies that were good at helping, you know, these are the problems that those types of companies typically experience, this is how we can help solve those problems. But not everybody's the right fit for us all of a sudden, and you you start to weed out companies that aren't the right fet I imagine it makes you more efficient in your sales process because now you're spending time with companies that actually could be the right customers. Right sure, well, and the idea is this, is that what people used to what they used to be taught? And and, by the way, well, we're going to. We're going to use GSEVENTY six as an example. So on a second, I'm going to ask you, well, what are the problems that your clients would face? So you have a second to think about it. All right, but what I want you to think about is this, is that if you're if you're leading with what people have often been taught in the past, is, will you ask and open it a question like what keeps you up at night and you might ask somebody what keeps you up at night and they say, Oh, my dog licks himself. All right, well, well, what do you have for that? You have a solution? No, and so then you're fishing, going, oh, well, what else? Well, I got concerns about X, Y Z. Yeah, we don't do that either. And now you're fishing for an opportunity as opposed to if you think about it, my guess is some of your best clients we're facing...

...a problem that they weren't even aware of until you help them realize that it was an issue. And so if you say to them what's your biggest problem, they might not even realize it. You know, it's like one of the questions that we'll ask people is well, so, zero to ten, how well do your sales people perform? And no one ever gives a ten. It's usually like a five. Okay, so you know, how much of that do you tribute to a how much of that do you attribute to a hiring problem, and how much would you attribute to a skills problem? They go it's probably like eighty percent skills. Okay, so what are you doing to invest in those skills? And it's like you know, the head expends, it goes oh right, but but if you ask them, Hey, what's your biggest challenge, they would never say it's the selling skill side. Yea, oftentimes it is. So going back to the same side pitch, if you're okay with it. Yeah, so what will use? You will use your business as exam Bire Wes. So so what's the biggest challenge that you solve for your clients? So I would say the biggest challenges that they're not getting in front of enough of the right people from the right companies. And why is that a problem? Because if they're not, if they're not doing that, then they're relying on their existing customer base or referrals and are often stuck serving customers who are not profitable and they wind up kind of on this hamster wheel. Yep, okay. So so your your same side pitch might be. Well, manufacturers come to us when there their message of the amazing prox and services they have aren't getting in front of the right clients and that means that either their in fear competitors or winning that business or, at a minimum, the company is forced to just keep trying to harvest the existing clients who you eventually run out of additional things you can sell your existing clients for the right organizations. They tell us that we deliver marketing solutions that...

...attract those clients, fill the top of their funnel and give them a disproportionate share of mind from those ideal customers. But the way we approach that, it's not the right fit for every company. So I don't yet know if I can help your manufacturing company, but if that's some of your facing them, have to learn more to see if we might be able to help. And so that's what it sounds like. Is First understanding what are those problems that we solve and then what the consequence is. Now I just kind of winged it, so it may not be perfect but it might not suck. Well, you know what, I'm glad we're recording this because now I can just transcribe it and copy and paste right into our website right now. That's that's right on the money. I mean it's exactly the converts. I can understand the power of having that conversation and and when you've especially when you when you're in a niche and you have a very specific type of customer and you know that customer really well. Well, you've seen all these patterns over time, right, and so it's while you can't make assumptions about what your prospects need, you've seen these problems before and you're able to speak to them. So absolutely, in my business it comes down to it's the earning attention side. It's people feeling that they're commoditized. So, wow, we've got some of its head and shoulders about the competition, but our clients see us as a commodity just like everybody else. Or there's this whole shift of how do we shift the conversation from price to value, because everyone wants to beat us up? Those are the types of things that I hear time and time again. So that's when people say what do you do? Well, my clients are usually facing one of these problems. Boom, boom, boom, and that doesn't resonate. It's probably not the right fit today. Doesn't mean it will never be, but they're probably not the right point today. There's a line from your book that I have, I've quoted, I've had a picture of your book up there. I've had the quote highlighted in a number of number of times. I've been in front of our own clients and hopefully it's sold you some books along the way without you realizing it. But the line that I really love, because it just speaks so well to a lot of...

...things that we preach a guerrilla and try to teach our clients is this. It says you said the goal of being an educator is not to convince, but to include a prospect in your perspective or knowledge base so that you build a common, mutual understanding. Yep, and I just love that quote so much because it's everybody in my world, in this manufacturing world, they just default, like we, like I said earlier, to talking about themselves and that's all you see in their marketing. It's brochure marketing, it's websites filled with product pages, which you need that stuff. I'm not saying you don't need it, but what we emphasize so much is that you have to take these elements of a consultative sale and you got to bring them down into your marketing process as well, because the first touch point that a lot of your future customers will have with you is is the content you published and the things you say, and so I just kind of curious to hear your take on that particular quote in this idea of being an educator. Well, my I always say that the best quotes in the Book Jack Probably wrote. But the the the idea behind the idea behind this is that when your client or prospect doesn't decide to do business with you, they decide not to spend money with you, one of two things has happened. Either they don't believe that the problem that you're talking about solving for them is that big of a deal, at least not compared to other things on their plate, or they don't believe in the result or outcome that you're that you're allegedly going to deliver, or both. And so when companies talk about here are features and here are capabilities and all this Whiz Bang stuff, what's the client wondering? What problems to solve? Why do I need it? What's the likely outcome or result? So the idea is that if you believe in the issue, the impact of the results and the client doesn't, it doesn't count. Similarly, if they believe in it but you don't, it doesn't count. So it's got to be a mutual understanding. If you both are on the same page about what problem you're trying to solve. If you're both in the same page about what...

...happens if they don't solve it and you both have consistent expectations about what the result should be, then there's a level of trust. If you think about if you're buying from somebody and you haven't had a meaningful conversation about what the results need to look like, what's going through the customers mind? The client is thinking, yeah, but do they really understand what we're trying to accomplish? But if you ask the questions up front about what a success look like and how we going to measure it, then it's just the client saying, yeah, I think they're actually going to follow through or not, but at least everyone's on the same page about what it is you're trying to accomplish. You know, one of the one of the things that I often share, especially with people on the manufacturing side, is so let's say you have two different vendors. One vendor is asking you about who needs to be involved in actually making a purchase. The other vendor says what could put the results at risk and what are we going to measure together to make sure that we get the right results for you. Well, which vendor would you rather deal with? The person who's focused on the sale, of the vendor WHO's focused on the results? Right, obviously, the result side right. And and then I'll say, well, so would you be willing to pay more for the vendor is focused on results? And people almost universally say I'd paid more for that. Okay, how much more? And the most common answer is somewhere between ten and twenty percent more. And then I asked the following question, which is, so, how much less would you have to pay for it to be a good deal, but you don't get the results that you need? The answer is it doesn't matter. Like if I don't get the results I need, was a waste of time and resources, let alone the money. So when companies can learn how to pivot, to focus on results instead of focusing on just getting the sale, that's when everything changes. That's when clients routinely pay more for your services than for other people's. There's a whole thing that we don't have time to discuss today. The talks about differentiation and...

...how do you stand out over the competition? Sure, yeah, I love that. Well, in we are recording this in August of two thousand and twenty. The world is still upside down in a lot of ways and it looks like it maybe for a while. One of the biggest struggles that I'm seeing among BDB manufacturers is they're not sure what to do with this big gap that's being left by the absence of trade shows, and not only trade shows but just being able to get on a plane and fry across the country to see a customer or a prospect. So many of these companies are reliant on that in person interaction, and so I'm curious from you your perspective, what you're seeing with the companies you consult and what you think you know these organizations can be doing in the meantime to fill that void. It's interesting in the in the same site selling academy, we do a monthly coaches corner call on one of the most prevalent topics of late has been so what do we do when we can't have in person meetings, when we can't rely on network and when we used to get eighty percent our leads to these trade shows that now don't exist? What do we do? And so what we need to do is immediately pivot to think like our customers. Now, the smart companies already worth thinking like their customers, but they, you know, there's still time to catch up, which is okay. What are the questions that our clients would ask? My friend Marcus Sheridan and his book, they ask you answer. You know Marcus talks. You're in the marketing world, you and that only know Marcus is love. Love. They ask you answer. Love, and and so the whole idea is that how do you create content that is meaningful for your clienter prospect and it come down to marcus talks about his big five of content marketing, five key topics that move the needle, and one of them is talked about price. One of the US talk about best of and comparisons, rankings and reviews. I think it is. And so the idea is to make it so that you're speaking to the problems you solve,...

...not your features and capability. So if, for example, you did he get, you did a case study that talked about how you solve this problem for another organization. It used to do when people did case studies, they would write a little bit about what the client was doing. Then they would write, you know, three or four hundred pages about themselves. Now, smart they are as a manufacturer, and then in the end it would say in contact us for more information. And instead what I suggest is you condense things and you say, so, here's a manufacturing company that or you know, whether it's a manufacturer, whether it's a you know, wherever their incline is. Here's this organization. They were having this problem and here's why that problem was so important. Notice, what am I starting with? What problem were they trying to solve? Why do they need to do it? Then I give you an entire sentence, not a compound sentence, but a sentence that says they came to us for help. And then you talk about the result and outcome manded up with, which barely mentions your product or service. So it says when it came to us and they use the certain black a two thousand and twenty. Today they're able to do this down. They've captured more market share, they've shortened their time to market, they've reduced errors, they've, you know, improved efficiency, they've their dogs and cats now peacefully get along together, whatever it is, and that's all great. So somebody reads that and they say, wow, that's really great. It could be a video, could be could be text, doesn't matter. After they've consumed that content, if they they're only going to look at that if they're having that same problem. So now we're already we're already nearing down our filter to the right people. And then what happens is they say, wow, yeah, I didn't think about the consequence of that. Yeah, but you have the same consequence and wow, I should like to have that same outcome. Only the vendor didn't describe the exact solution. So if you're that customer, what do you do? You either pick up the phone or you eail the company and say how did you solve that? And then it's about training the...

REP who answers that call to not say, Oh, here's how we solved it, but instead say what was it about that case that Pique your interest and immediately talk about what's important to them as a customer, not talking about your stuff. Perfect love it. So case studies, you know, but focused on the problem and the outcome. So case it's basically it's just taking all of your marketing mindset and shifting it to a focus on what problems do we solve? What's the information that people are wondering about. And guess what? If it's if there's if there's a certain problem, you might say, here are three ways to solve this problem. And guess what? You might start by saying, look, oftentimes people come to us to solve this problem and that's something that we do. But in the event that you can't afford to do it the way that we do it, here are two or three alternatives that could work for you. And because the person who's going to go through all the headaches to do it the hard way, they're going to do that anyhow. Sure, sure, but other people going to look and say, all those three ways look like a lot of work. We're not doing that. Let's just call these guys hmm and, and then you're narrowing your field. So if you just put out a whole bunch of marketing height that says here's how cool we are, no one's going to care. Right. If, instead you say, okay, how do we attract the right interest by speaking to the problems that these people are facing day and day out, then you're onto something we created in the in the same side selling academy, I created a course called growth and crisis that we give people, people can access for free as go to the website and your same site, selling Academycom, and you can click and and get that course for free. Yeah, one of the first things I talked about is that in this type of crisis, bromit, your goal first and foremost is to be helpful, and so I thought I'd be kind of cynical if I then charge for the course. So sure, we just we just made it available for free. But it's the whole idea of how can you help other people and talk about the problems...

...that they're facing and how to solve them and the right people will come back and do business with you. It's okay, yeah, makes sense. But and so with you know, with with in person of as trade shows out the door. So creating content that's actually helpful. How do you get it out there? From your perspective, are you an inbound guy and outbound guide? You like both, use a little both. So if you already have a good list, then you're sharing information and you're constantly seeking feedback. Here's this piece of content we shared. What else would you like to hear? I use linkedin live and so at the end of every linkedin live I'll post them and says, what are the topics would you like to hear about? And then you know, because the ideas. I'm just trying to serve that audience. Yeah, and you know, what are the questions do you have? You know, hey, play stump the guesser, like tell me, you know, ask a question that you don't think we can answer that. Oh, like, here's a really hard one, because if you're the person they're coming to for a lot of answers, then you're probably also the person I'm going to come now. If you basically solicit questions for things that have nothing to with your business, that's going to be harder. But it can be related to it, like I think I think Marcus talks about I think it's Columbia sports or one of those. can be out of where. I think as a whole. APP They produced on knots. I'm like, how to tie knots those so well that they don't sell rope. It's like you're missing the point. Their audience is people who are on boats and that, camping in this and that who would like an APP on how do I tie this type and out of that type of not. So they're serving their audience. So it's relevant. But if they were, you know, if they were posting something about, you know, doing suvied cooking, their audience wouldn't care because not a boat, they're probably not firing up the SUV, of course. Yeah, it's all about understanding the customer and being a restource resource to them. Sure love it. Well, even this has been a fantastic conversation. It's been an honor having the opportunity to talk to the coauthor of...

...one of my absolute favorite business books. Can you tell can you tell us the best place where listeners to find you online, where you'd send them and where they could pick up a copy of same site selling? Absolutely so. You can pick up the same side selling just about anywhere books are sold. Amazon tims to be the one of the most popular places now, but you can also get it at the in the bookstores as well, my you know. So if you go to Ian Altmancom you'll get me or same side selling. Academy gets everything on the Academy side and people can always reach out with any questions, because sometimes people will read the book or hear something and the post a question and it's amazing because ill using a questions it's a well, I'm sure Ian doesn't actually read these. And then, like, I get the email and I respond and say, what do you think? I don't read these, like Oh, you read them. I'm like, well, I said it to me. If you send it to you sent it to info, maybe I'll read it, maybe I won't. If you send it to me, I'm probably going to read it. Yeah, that's great, perfect. Well, Ian, thanks to toime for taking the time out of your week to do this. I really appreciate it. You Bet you. Thanks for all the great questions. Awesome is. For the rest of you, I hope to catch you on the next episode of the Manufacturing Executive. You've been listening to the manufacturing executive podcast. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you'd like to learn more about industrial marketing and sales strategy, you'll find an ever expanding collection of articles, videos, guides and tools specifically for bedb manufacturers at Gorilla Seventy sixcom learn thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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