The Manufacturing Executive
The Manufacturing Executive

Episode · 1 year ago

Working On the Business, Not In the Business, w/ Paul van Metre

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

A lot of companies are started by people who are experts in their craft, but are not great at building companies.

But how do you learn to let go of the day-to-day? How do you, as a founder, learn to focus on developing repeatable and scalable business processes in order to grow and scale your business successfully?

On this episode of the Manufacturing Executive, I sit down with Paul Van Metre. Paul is the Co-Founder of ProShop ERP, and our conversation on this episode centered all around:

  • Why focusing on repeatable and scalable processes is the ONLY thing that’s going to grow your business
  • Why you should be working ON the business, not IN the business
  • The process of evolving from a machine shop into a software business

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And ultimately, your role should really be to completely replace everything you do, so you're no longer working in the business at all and you're strictly working on the business, doing strategic stuff, doing the stuff you love the most, doing the stuff that's going to add the most of value to your company, building those processes, you know, and hiring a great team that will help you execute and, you know, elevate your company to the next level. Welcome to the manufacturing executive podcast, where we explore the strategies and experiences that are driving midsize manufacturers forward. Here you'll discover new insights from passionate manufacturing leaders who have compelling stories to share about their successes and struggles, and you'll learn from B tob sales and marketing experts about how to apply actionable business development strategies inside your business. Let's get into the show. Welcome to another episode of the Manufacturing Executive podcast. I'm Joe Sullivan, your host and a CO founder of the Industrial Marketing Agency guerrilla. Seventy six okay, manufacturing leaders, I want you to raise your hand if you're the type that is struggled somewhere along the way with relinquishing control handing off the job to your team and trusting it's gonna get done, and done well and, yes, even without your hands in it. I'm talking about empower your team to work in the business so you can spend your time working on the business. Now. It could be wrong, but I'm guessing most hands are up right now, and it's understandable. Our companies were born out of our vision and raised under our guidance, but they can't grow up and thrive if we don't give them a chance to do so without our constant supervision. I've got a fantastic conversation ahead for you today with an entrepreneur in the manufacturing arp space that has been in this position before and now helps others to get out of it. So let's do this.

Paul van meter is spent his life pursuing and following his passions in the precision machining industry. After seventeen years as a CO founder and president of a machine shop, PROCNC, Paul cofounded pro shop ARP, a software company that develops industry four leading web based and paperless earp software for small and medium manufacturing companies in the metalworking industry. Paul has a passion for same for the Sime community, connecting with and helping companies grow, Prosper and provide opportunities and employment in their communities. As a shop owner for seventeen years and now a software provider to SIM's, Paul as deep roots in the machining community and a unique perspective based on his experience in the manufacturing supply chain. Paul, welcome to the show, Joe. Thank you for having me. It's I'm excited looking forward to it. Thank you. Yeah, I feel in the same way. I think I discovered you on Linkedin and because you which is how I discover a lot of people these days. Frankly, kind of just embedding myself in the manufacturing space and naturally, you know, you se you stumble across people who are there and active and have a perspective on things, and I really liked, you know, some of the insights I saw you posting and thought our I we got to get Paul here on the show to talk about his experience and have since sort of, you know, learned about some of your passions. So I'm excited to get into this conversation with you. Yeah, thank you, me too. All Right, so, Paul, you have got a Classic Entrepreneurial Story and I'd love for you to kick things off here by just telling our listeners how pro shop Eurp came to be. Yeah, absolutely so it. I'll go back a little ways. You mentioned, I think, in Intro, about I used to own a machine shop. So I started a machine shop straight out of college with somebodies that I went to college with. I did not ever plan to be an entrepreneur. I thought I would work at a big car company actually in design and build cars. When I was a kid, I, you know, studied engineering and and thought that was my path, but fell in love with machining and manufacturing as we'd built a lot of our projects in school. We actually designed and...

...built race cars for the Formula Sae competition, which is an entree for a lot of people into manufacturing, and we just loved it so much we decided that we wanted to start a company together. So one of my partners owned a house with enough equitius to take out a second mortgage and that money was enough to rend a space by a has VF for an old manual mill and lathe and start looking for business. So that's what we did at the like right bold age of twenty three three or so right out of college. And and so that company, you know, grew over the years, eventually up to about seventy five people and thirty plus machines. And during the time that we grew that company we couldn't find any software that we thought was worth buying to run our company with. Believe me, we looked and so we eventually just started building something out of need for ourselves, and that eventually turned into pro shop and we didn't plan on selling it to anyone else but our biggest customer. And then ultimately other companies started approaching US and asking us if we would sell our software to them, not just our machines parts. And so in two thousand and sort of sixteen we sold the machine shop and then launch pro shop in two thousand and sixteen. So here we are now. That's awesome. Good for you guys. It's it's been fun. It's been a fun ride for sure. Yeah, I bet. Well, it's got to be. It's got to just be a really good feeling. Toyah. I mean you had a problem in your business, something that you realized a gap right and in this need that you had, and you figured out the solution. You made it for yourself and then all of a sudden realize, okay, well, I guess everybody else needs us to. I mean it's I feel like it's how a lot of the best products and services are born, right. Sure, yeah, often out of need for something on an internal team and then they realize there's commercial value there. So yeah, that was us, but we again never planned it that way. If you'd ask me, you know, when we were running our shop, if you'd won one day be it's oftware company. I was said this. That's just crazy talk. Yeah, it's interesting how things play out. Very cool. Well,...

...probably along the way here, Paul, is, is where you develop this passion that you were talking to me recently about the idea of creating scalable business processes and why that's so important. So I'd love to hear from your perspective to who you talk about that a little bit. Yeah, so a lot of shops are started by people that are technicians right their experts in something. Maybe they're, you know, there're a journeyman level machinists, maybe they're a programmer or both, but they're good at what their technical job is and then they just open up a company and they start getting business in and they just kind of roll right into all right, this guy sending us a job, let's get it on the shop and make it and they grow to a point where their lack of business processes become a major hindrance to growth. Right. I think a lot of companies just don't think nearly enough about business process they're just kind of winging it the whole time, you know, and that can work when you're small and it's probably highly efficient when you're small, but as you start to grow, you know, things slip through the cracks. You forget to order this thing or you thought this person, this other person, your company was supposed to do that, but they don't really realize that's their job and so they don't do that and things start to fall apart and just become frustrating and difficult, and a lot of shops spend a lot of time fighting fires. Right. I was even talking to a customer of ours recently and he said his shop used to be like a pirate ship. It was just, you know, people run around doing stuff. But the more you think about developing repeatable and scalable business processes and focusing on those and that the result of those is a profitable business. That is real key to scaling and growing a business. Yeah, for sure, I agree with everything you said. They're, you know, something that my business partner John and I have faced many times over our fifteen years of growing this business, which is grown from two to twenty people. At this point we're still smallst company, but you know, when you're two people, you'd literally doing everything. When you're twenty people you're able to start to finally, you know, specialize and remove...

...things from your plate. But it's really tough to let go of the rains when this thing's your baby and when you know that you can do it right because you've done it right and now all of a sudden you've got us sort of relinquish, relinquish control and trust other people to get things done. I mean I still face it, you know, fifteen years in it's still it's still a challenging thing to do. So, you know, I guess my question for you as a follow up here, is how can leaders of manufacturing organizations put themselves in a position to work more on the business and the left go of, you know, the working in the business right? I appreciate it's a great question and it actually it's perfect because I read a book my partner's and I read this book pretty early on in our machine shop called the e myth. I don't know if you've read that one by Michael Gerber, but it is a really easy read, sort of told like a story, and they had the concept. Is that kind of like I alluded to in the last question. Come pnies are often started by people that are experts in their craft, but they're not necessarily great at building companies, and so they just get deeply embedded. They're always working, you know, in the company right there there, machining parts, are programming, they're taking orders, they're doing things and they don't spend as much time working on the company. And so the way that the sort of the process of taking thinking more about business process, to tie it back to the last question as well, is that if you kind of analyze what you do on a daily basis, you can probably break it out into multiple different buckets of sort of job duties. Right, when you're a small business, you're you're the salesperson, you're the janitor, you're the order entary person, your customer service, your the machinist, right, but as you as you grow and you can no longer do all those things, if you look and say, all right, well, when I'm doing sales, this is the things that I do to do sales. Right, when I'm when I'm being a programmer, I'm doing these things, when I am doing, you know, accounts receivable and payable, when I'm...

...being the bookkeeper, I'm doing these other things. And if you document what you're actually doing in each of those roles, you know, think about it like switching hats. Right, you have your salesperson hat, you got your machinist hat, as you task switched during the day, think about exactly what you're doing. Write it down and define that as a process. And the more you define that and make it clear so someone else can read that look at it, maybe you make a little videos about it, that allows you to then start hiring people into those roles and replacing yourself as the salesperson, replacing yourself as the estimator, as the janitor, as the Accountant, and ultimately your role should really be to completely replace everything you do, so you're no longer working in the business at all and you're strictly working on the business, doing strategic stuff, doing the stuff you love the most, doing the stuff that's going to add the most of value to your company, building those processes, you know, and hiring a great team that will help you execute and, you know, elevate your company to the next to that next level. That's a really good recommendation. I really like the the way you described actually writing down that list. What are all the things you do? And I can remember doing that myself, probably about ten years ago, where it was like all right, I mean we were, you know, a very small company at the time and just writing all these things down and being a guard this, this is the one that needs to go first, and then it's got you. It's got to be bookkeeping, right, like I I should not be keeping the books at my company as the owner of the company, like let's throw that to our accountant, like let's you know, and then would just sort of chipping away one at a time. But if you prioritize those things, it's a where am I really most needed, where am I creating the most value, and you keep those things for longer until eventually you can, you know, give up control of them. But I think it's a really good exercise for somebody to go through. Yeah, and one of the main premises of that book that really, I think, just gel for me in a visual way, is the idea is that you are designing...

...your company as if it were a prototype of a franchise business. Right. So you only have one factory, one shop, one whatever it is that you are but imagine that you decided to open a second location, you know, a hundred miles away or a thousand miles away, right, if you aren't there on a daily basis to actually do all the work, how would someone even know what to do to replicate and provide the same service that you do in your facility to, you know, to someone from somewhere else? So, if you think about it like a franchise, like a McDonald's, right, whenever you go to Annie McDonald's, the experience you're going to have, more or less, is going to be the same, same Burgers, same fries, same processes, and you know that that repeatable, consistent product and or service that you're delivering to your customer is a result of business processes. Without having those clearly defined for the people you're hiring to replace you in those roles, you're not going to have that consistency. So that was part of the book I you know, I definitely recommend anyone that has not read the ems to go out and buy it. It's an easy read. But yeah, just the concept of a franchise, prototype of a business, even if you only have one location, that that makes a ton of sense to me. And then the other thing that's been on my mind recently is that there's a whole lot of shop owners that are in the baby boomer generation that are getting pretty close or even past sort of typical retirement age and a lot of them are going to be faced with that, the the idea of well, what am I going to do with my business next? Right, am I going to sell it to my kids, if I don't have any kids that are interested in it, maybe to key employees, or maybe to, you know, some third party and all together. And I think there's a unfortunately, there's a lot of shops out there they are going to be in for kind of a rude surprise about how little their companies are actually worth because the cohole company is still wrapped up around them and what they are doing without the scalable processes. Right that, let's say talking about a third party buyer,...

...you know, a strategic buyer another shop or or an equity firm or something even like that, if you can demonstrate that you have these good, repeatable processes in the business is not just, you know, reliant on you exclusively to get everything done and every every time a question comes up, someone comes to you and says, what should I do here? All right, if they know that, that's more valuable. And when you know, for a lot of shops out there that have been through or companies that have been through things like like an ISO audit, ice nine thousand or asn anyone hundred audit. When you go through the due diligence of selling a company, it's like an audit times ten. It's like on steroids. They are going to dig through every single thing in your company to make sure they're playing the right price, and they will if they discover that you just are a mess of, you know, running around scraps of paper and spreadsheets and this and that, and without really good, solid processes that other people are running, that business just doesn't have a lot of value besides the actual assets. Yeah, you hit on a lot of really good stuff there. You know, the other thing I think happens when you become really good at documenting the way you do things or having very clear, well laid out processes is the satisfaction inside of your company, among the employees and your teammates, starts to rise too. Because, because I've seen this in my company over the years, I don't think it matters what kind of business you run when people don't understand who's responsible for what, who reports to who? You know when something, when a certain thing happens, like you know whose job is it to deal with this or how to one person executes this process this way and this way. It creates a lot of I mean just confusion, which leads to people who just aren't content in their roles. Yeah, and then that trickles down to retention issues and just morale issues in the company. So there's just there are...

...so many side effects of having being able to remove yourself from the business and being able to lay those processes out. It just touches so many parts of your organization. Yeah, absolutely, and when we were growing and bumping up across these pain points ourselves, we actually mean we were fortunate enough that we had hired a software developer to build some you know, some software for us and we were like, you know what this is like, you know probably having some things fall through the crack. So I thought you're supposed to do that and I thought you were supposed to do that, and so we just like we started building where like let's build a job sort of a job description, job position module, and let's build an organ chart and let's build modules for all of our daily tasks and our business processes, and ultimately those fed really well into our like ISO ans and anyone hundred, because those are requirements to have that kind of stuff in there. But the way that we did it was just it really helped us grow and and we had very, very low turnover and are, you know, really high employee attention, high custom high employee satisfaction. And I think you're right, and I hadn't really thought about it quite that way, but it was largely probably because everyone knew exactly what they're supposed to be doing. They knew what good performance looked like with all the metrics and the KPI's we set out. And ultimately employees want to come to work, work with people that are well aligned with them culturally, do good work, you know, feel proud of what they do and know they're making an impact and if you can lay out your business process and structure that way, people are going to love it absolutely well, Paul, let's Talk Arp a little bit, and you run a great arp software platform specifically for manufacturing shops, because there was there was a need for that that didn't seem to exist and which is why you why you wound up up where you are now. So I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about like where does he rp fit into this whole, you know, process of streamlining...

...or this topic of streamlining business processes and skillability. Sure, yeah, I just had a conversation yesterday with a gentleman. He owns machine shop in Wisconsin, pre COVID, about seventy five people down a little bit now, but he said he uses thirteen different software products to run the company, you know, from things with, you know, estimating and sales and and order entry and cutting tool management and preventative maintenance and like just all the different things you know. And I'm sure some of those are just spreadsheet systems they built or little mini databases or whatever. But when an EARP system right, earp of courses, enterprise resource planning. It's designed to help run a company. But what we found when we did our research for our shop is that the software products out there and it's a crowded space. You don't get me wrong, and it's not like we were reinventing a new category, but the software products that we found that were designed for job shops and manufacturing shops like us, they did some things perfectly well, right estimating maybe, and quoting order entry, creating invoices, purchasing, but they left this huge middle section of where you're kind of done with the sort of office side of things and you print off a paper job traveler and it goes out into the factory and and then it's kind of a kind of a black hole. Right now, some have data collection stations and you could log in and log out of the job and say how many parts you've made, but there's a lot of the lot more nuance and detail that happens in a shop out there. And of course, in a manufacturing company the value is generated on the shop floor. That's where you're taking raw materials, doing value added processes and making finish goods, and so that's the really the meat potatoes of a company and you really need to have good business processes, I think, tied into software that make it really easy and transparent and reduce, you know, overhead costs and let people just...

...work on the actual value added part of making chips and making parts and doing things quickly. And the software is that we looked at just didn't have those things. So we decided again to build our own and we focus really heavily on that sort of manufacturing execution, sort of side of eyes side of things, as well as quality management. So we built a complete qms system into pro shop as well. So sometimes we actually see and sometimes you'll see it on our website that pro shop is ARP MES and qms and it's actually a bunch of other acronyms to you know cmms and LMS and all sorts of these silly acronyms, but basically, you know, trying to solve like what that guy in Wisconsin was dealing with, with thirteen different software products and trying to pair it down to, you know, ideally one or two right and so I think the rite ARP in a company can dramatically help improve efficiencies throughput improve quality all tight around business processes because ultimately, you know, we think of pro shop is really it's like an operating system for a shop, you know it is. You sort of plug things in on the Front End, follow the process all the way along and you're going to get good, profitable parts out at the end. So that's how, a little bit I think about arps it relates to manufacturing. Yeah, that's great and you know it's you kind of can see it at both extremes sometimes. Where I see this in the world of marketing, where there's a million pieces of software that do a million different things and finding one tool that does absolutely everything the way it needs to be done is tough. But you can there are tools out there like you know hub spot for example, where, like a lot of this, a lot of it is handled on what under one one umbrella and done really well. Will still pair it with other things here and there when it you know, when you need all their tools for various things. But I'm thinking of all the stuff we do inside of that piece of software and if we had we were running thirteen different pieces of software, like you know your manufacturing example. Yeah, it would just be a massive becomes chaos. It's too...

...hard to manage. You people don't know what tool to use for what? So, yeah, the idea behind what what you guys have done is seems pretty great. Well, again, we just because we had no manufacturing or ARP experience before we started our company, really we didn't have preconceived notions about what earpiece software should look like and be included, you know, what kind of features. So we just went sort of logically through everything that we did and we're like, okay, we need a page for this, a feature for that, a module for that, right and it included, you know, for a machine shop. And we've diversified a little bit further out. You know, we have fab and world shops and other companies and even some modems that use pro shop. But the core, fundamental principle is that they're taking their manufacturing typically, you know, high complexity, really value added products going through complex processes and and even more sweet spot in a regulated industry like aerospace, Defense Medical Because, as you know, it was our shop was getting more sophisticated and getting into these these markets and and had more discerning clients with more flowdowns and needs and we need to manage quality and our setups and our tools and make sure we always had everything at the right time, nothing was missing. You know, we just said, all right, what, let's build a feature for this. We just realize that we set we went to set up a job when we didn't have all the tools. All right, well, let's make a module for tools and making sure that feeds into purchasing so you make sure you have them in advance before you go to do your job. And we just because it was sort organically built by people that were didn't have a preconceived notion but had a daily need, you know, updict to get these problems solved, it just turned into a really interesting organic product that was just different than anything else out there. Yeah, that's great. Are there any examples, Paul? Like I notice you've got some some videos like testimonial, case study, success story type of videos on the pro...

...shop website. Any example you could give that and what sort of put into context for listeners the transformation that a company was able to go through, like pre and post implementation? Yeah, I mean we have time. I think we're approaching twenty testmer customonial videos out there and so there's a lot of them, but one that I'm particularly just fills my heart with joy, you know, to hear and talk to these clients talk about it. Small father and son kind of run shop. Father started it in as in his basement. Sun joined right out of college, you know, small machine shop, about fifteen twenty people in Connecticut. They were using, actually they use two of our competitor products in the past. They used one for a couple of years, then they realize that wasn't going to work, so they switch to another one. Use that one for several years. But they were really sort of hitting their heads up against the ceiling on its capability and realize that they're spending far more time making workarounds and spreadsheets to help, you know, filling gaps they didn't have. So when they put pro shop in within just a few months time and really for the call it sort, for the whole year after putting pro shop in, they increased their revenue about twenty percent without any additional equipment and even one last person in the overhead department they got rid of purchasing person they didn't need anymore. But the reason they improve that so much is because they got about twenty percent more throughput on their factory floor. Right they were set ups were going smoother, things were just flowing more quickly through the factory. They didn't have machines sitting and waiting idol, waiting for tools or equipment or taps or gages to show up that they realize they didn't need or they didn't have. And so, you know, they increase their throughput by twenty percent, their profitability went up considerably, their on time delivery performance went up by many, many points. You know, they said for their main production business, they they were basically hitting hundred percent on time right and before that it was just constant firefighting, struggling to hit dates, constantly paying expediting...

...fees to catch up on jobs that were late. In fact, that was a note. It wasn't even a thing that I had even ever thought about as like a return on investment, but they are. So they were the first ones that kind of cluded me into this. They used to spend about thirtyzero dollars a year on expediting fees for like plating processes or outside processes or expediting material or just paying like overnight shipping charges to bring in, you know, something that they realize at the very last minute that they didn't have. So they were spent about thirty grand a year and they almost entirely cut that to zero, right, so that just that cost alone was more than pro shop cost them, let alone, you know, a twenty percent increase in revenue and throughput and profitability and just how much less friction they had, how much more they enjoyed their job and, you know, company morale went up, just all these incredibly positive things, you know, coming out of using a system that was better designed for their business than what they were using before. Well, congrats. It sounds like one of many success stories you've got, but it's got. I mean, that's just got to be the best feeling as a as a business owner, to hear that, you know, to get validation right like like you can, when you see people's businesses literally changing and which affects their lives and, you know, their own livelihood, that that's just the best feeling. So that's pretty cool. It is. And particularly with machine shops and job shops like that that are, you know, making things from Ramat raw metals and materials, turning then to finish goods, they are literally at sort of the ground floor foundation of the entire economy. Right. Everything, and I use this example all the time. Right, you look around your space, everything that you can see, was originally starting started with machining in some way or form, right whether it's that microphone or the shirt, their sweatshirt you're wearing, that was made on a machine. That's made up of lots of machine parts that were made by machine shops. And so not only can we improve the individual businesses and their local economies,...

...you know, growing more to hire more, more people, more machinists, but that's you know, if you do that enough times over thousands of thousands of shops, that's going to lift up the economy. You know. That's and manufacturing jobs have the highest multiplicative effect of any other types of job, where, you know, one manufacturing job creates like three or four other jobs to support them, you know, in service businesses. And so yeah, I just we believe it's incredibly important. It's an honor to work with our clients. You know, I always used to love making really beautiful machined parts and I've got a lot of satisfaction out of that, but I get way more satisfaction out of making meaningful impacts to people's businesses. That's really cool. It's fun. I can't imagine doing something more fun than this. Paul is there anything that I did not ask you today that you'd like to touch on? Which is it? Actually one last maybe one little point, as most machine shops are companies that work in high tech manufacturing. No, it's incredibly hard to find people right that have the technical skills and the ability to do what you want to do, and you alluded to this earlier about, you know, having a good culture and good business process so people don't have that friction at work. I see a lot of shops right now putting out job ads that say, you know, we have an opening for a machinist, come apply, and I can tell you that that's just not a winning formula right there's there are so many openings for so few people that you really got to up your game on recruiting and making your company just an incredible place to work and like a like a bright light in the night, you know, with with attracting people to you that want to just congregate and be part of your world. So think about if you are in the position where you're needing people actually think. I even wrote a blog poster out this recently. There's a lot you can do to kind of make sure that people are applying for your jobs, or rather than the jobs down the street. So think about what from an outside perspective, what would draw someone to your company and make it look like a really incredible place to work? Now, that's great. It's you know, it's funny. I can't seem to escape any of...

...these podcast conversations without the manufacturing labor shortage coming up. It's just it's everybody's talking about it. It's a very real, real thing, and I totally agree with you because we talked about this at gorilla, being a company that does a marketing for manufacturing companies. Like it's a very similar thing with recruiting talents. Like you're trying to get discovered, you're trying to earn trust and and the attention of people that would be good employees of your company. And yet a majority, you go to a majority of the careers pages on manufacturing organizations websites and it's like a few paragraphs of text and like a link to an external job board. It's like that's how you're going to recruit people, like that's how you that that is the impression you want people to have of this being a good place to work. So I totally agree it. You should be selling your business to employees just as much as you're selling him to customers. Absolutely, if not more so. Absolutely agree, especially in a time like this. So well, good. I'm glad you throw that little nugget in there. So we'll, Paul, tell our audience how they can get in touch with you and how they can learn more about pro shop sure or. Our website is pro shop earpcom. We also have a new website. I don't know if you've seen it personally. It's for as branding and marketing goes. It's called love your earpcom. Kind of fun. It's all hot pink and beautiful, lots of hearts and cheesy stuff all over it, but that's fun to check out. And then I'm of of Cuiz. I'm on Linkedin, just Paul van meter va NM etre. I'm sure you'll include it in the show notes and whatnot, but yeah, I hang out and Linkedin a lot as you. As you said, that's awesome. I'm pulling up love your rpcom as you speak. Right now. I'm going to take a look at that. Looks it looks like a yeah, someone told me recently that he said that marketing to machine shop owners using hot pink as a boss move, and I thought that was just a hilarious statement to make. Hey, you're going to stand out, I'll tell you that much. So yes, yeah, it's fun to put together. Well, Paul, this was really great. Really appreciate you doing this once again. So I guess...

...we'll put a bow on it there. So my pleasure, Joe, thanks for the time. I appreciate it. Take care of a good day, absolutely, and as for the rest of you, I hope to catch you on the next episode of the Manufacturing Executive. You've been listening to the manufacturing executive podcast. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you'd like to learn more about industrial marketing and sales strategy, you'll find an ever expanding collection of articles, videos, guides and tools specifically for bdb manufacturers at Gorilla Seventy sixcom learn thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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