The Manufacturing Executive
The Manufacturing Executive

Episode · 1 year ago

Creating a Well-Designed Sales Playbook w/ Kevin Roach


If you have a defined sales process, you're ahead of 50% of the manufacturing companies out there. But without one, you can't measure efficacy or deliver maximum value to your customers. Your organization will suffer.

Why is it so hard for manufacturers to draft a sales playbook? And what's the right solution to this problem?

In today's episode, I discuss creating a sales playbook for manufacturers with Kevin Roach, President at Harpak-ULMA Packaging. He's the first Gorilla 76 client I've ever hosted on the show, and I loved it!

Here's what Kevin and I talked about:

  1. Ways to align your sales process with the buyers' journey
  2. Why OEE and TCO need to be part of the sales conversation
  3. How to overhaul the way you go to market with your sales team

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Without a documented sales process that all are trained on, you can't measure efficacy, you won't deliver maximum value to customers. Your salespeople we less effective and your organization will be less effective. Welcome to the manufacturing executive podcast, where we explore the strategies and experiences that are driving midsize manufacturers forward. Here you'll discover new insights from passionate manufacturing leaders who have compelling stories to share about their successes and struggles, and you will learn from B tob sales and marketing experts about how to apply actionable business development strategies inside your business. Let's get into the show. Welcome to another episode of the Manufacturing Executive podcast. I'm Joe Sullivan, your host and a CO founder of the Industrial Marketing Agency guerrilla seventy six. So it's really easy sometimes in the business development process to focus on ourselves, especially when we know exactly how good our product is or how amazing our customer services and how skilled our engineers or technical professionals are. And while all of that will work to our advantage once a new customer relationship has begun, it can actually work against us in marketing and sales and that's because our buyers are focused on their issues and their problems and there are goals, not our products and all the bells and whistles that come with them. Your prospects are wherever they are in their own buyers journeys, and it's our job to meet them there, to listen, to be their guide. My guest today is a leader in the manufacturing space that gets this more than most who have talked to and he's put these concepts into practice inside the manufacturing organization that he leads, focusing on things like total cost of ownership, or TCO, and overall equipment effectiveness, or Oee, to drive sales conversations that are customer centric instead of focusing on his own products features and benefits. So on that note, let me take a moment to introduce Kevin Roach. Kevin Roach is the president and CEO of the automated packaging equipment manufacturer HARPAC Elma. Kevin is a senior level technology executive with proven global leadership and distinguished performance and operations in sales, as well as financial and general management. He's also experienced in strategic planning, research and development, manufacturing and marketing across multiple industries. Earlier in his career, Kevin led honeywell intelligrated, a software division of Honeywell focused on warehouse execution software. During his tenure he reinvented the company's approach to sales, market development, product development, quality, professional services and investment strategies. Kevin successfully positioned intelligrated as a global leader in integrated systems and software solutions for the supply...

...chain and also led to companies breakthrough initiative for the Connected Distribution Center. Kevin has also served as executive vice president and general manager of epic course software, Executive Vice President and general manager of active in solutions, president and CEO of Rockwell software and vice president of GE industrial software. A proponent of lean and six sigma and certified g six Sigma Black Belt, Kevin is passionate about building company cultures focused on continuous improvement. Kevin, welcome to the show. Hey Joe, great to be here. Thanks for having me. You Bet what, Kevin, quite the professional journy you've had up to this point. Is there anything from the Bio I just read that you'd like to elaborate on in terms of what led you to where you are today at hard tack Alma Yeah, it's interesting, Joe. I began my career actually as an engineer at a company that was the precursors to our back Alma company called tw Cutter, founded by the same family that founded our pack Alma and like our back Onlma, tw cutter was a company that provided automated packaging lines, lines that were intended to produce size beeed packaging for the food, medical and industrial markets. And there I did found a couple of my own companies, one that led me to Ge because they ultimately acquired it. Had A lot of fun at Rockwell automation. What a great company there as well and, as you mentioned, a number of private equity gigs where we were positioning companies for growth and ultimately for sale. So I guess you could say I've come kind of full circle some thirty five years later, here back at home at hardpack alm, are for our next digital transformation and growth to help our customers grow. Awesome, but that's that's all great stuff. You're actually, I think the the last four episodes I've done you're the second that has been a part of rock well at some point. So it's that's a name that you know. Seems to come up and just about every other conversation I have with the manufacturer for good reason. So it's a great company and, of course, a partner of ours, because the machines we produce now are very rock wall centric. So we produce machines with nearly a hundred percent rock will controls, components and software, along with our other partner, PTC, who is a type partner with rock wall automation as well. You may have read a couple years ago rock well invested over a billion dollars into PTC and and now it's about a ten percent stakeholder and rock well see Eos on the Board of PTC, like Marette. Well, Kevin, you are officially the first client of Gorilla Seventy six that I've interviewed on this show. So we've been working together for a bit now and I hand picked you because you guys run a really tight ship at hard pack. Your team is exceptional. I've seen firsthand how well structured and discipline both your marketing and sales teams are, and you and I were talking recently about how how many manufacturing organizations don't really have a well defined sales playbook. Instead, you get your leadership teams tending to tell their sales teams here's the product, now go get them, and I was just wondering if you could talk a little bit about why this is a problem and that seems to be the approach. It's a great question and it's still amazes me, Joe, that I'm going to guess that nearly half the companies out there of...

...various sizes, it's not just the small ones, it's mediums and it's large companies, simply don't have a sales process and that means that it's going to effectively lessen the efficacy of their sales team their customers, it's going to impact customer satisfaction and in the end it's going to limit growth and success for the company. If you rely on every single salesperson to make it up as they go you're going to get tens or hundreds of variations of what you're trying to achieve a customers which isn't going to feel good with customers and it's not going to be effective. If you don't have to find process with metrics that you can't measure, you can't improve those metrics. So we're continuous improvement oriented culture. We're always seeking improvement to deliver more value to our customers. We follow very rigorous process methods to constantly improve things. So I would say, simply put, without a documented sales process that all are trained on, you can't measure efficacy, you won't deliver maximum value to customers. Your salespeople we less effective and your organization will be less effective. So in the end you must have a good must have good process rigger to scale and grow a business. Let me give you an example. Let's say that you were going to go have heart surgery and you had doctor a and doctr be that you could choose from. Dr A has a very rigorous process and he does it the same way every single time. It's been tested and refined and improved and the outcomes are amazing. Dr B has a bit of a rusty scalpel on his utility knife belt and says, let's go, I think I can get this done pretty well. Who you going to pick? Somebody that has a refined process with proven outcomes, or something that's going to win it? I think it's talk to at this point in this case. Yeah, I think so. That's a pretty funny you bring up the that example actually, because I actually had open art surgery at the age of Eight, and so very relevant and I'm hoping my my parents chose Dr A. I assume they did. So it seems like they're doing well. So the pig. Yeah, I think exactly. I think so. No, it's a great example, though, and I think you're exactly right, and it's the same way manufacturing organizations need to be thinking. And you know, some of them may not be so. So to Kevin, I was wondering along those lines. I know that you that HARPEC ALMA has designed a sales process that aligns very intentionally with the buyers journey, and wondering if you could talk a little bit about the stages of that process to provide some context. Yeah, I'd love to. We've been working on this now for a little more than two and a half years and I would say we're probably ninety percent there, so we feel good about the progress. Let me stop by saying the first thing we did is to interview and understand our customers buying journey. So how do they go about buying things, rather than how do we want to set? Well, we want to understand how they buy so that we could match our selling process to the buying process. So we've developed a very buying scent buyers centric process for selling.

As a mentioned, we interviewed a bunch of our customers. We identified what stages they go through as their contemplating purchases of new capital equipment. I think that's incredibly important for everybody to start the start with who you're working with and then we develop the stages. So let me talk about the stages. We have five stages and again, we see these as the buyers path that we need to follow and assist and help them be successful. And I'll use buying an automobile as an example to kind of relate to what our buyers are going through and the things that happened during the different stages. The first stage is recognition. That's when you say, HMM, I may need a new piece of equipment, in this case the car. My car has been, you know, getting a little RADII, the ACS getting weak, one of the windows is busted. Maybe I really get to let this this puppy, go to the graveyard and get a new car. That recognition phase is when you're determining do you have a need, do you have a problem to solve, do you have an opportunity to pursue? Do you have an issue to avoid? So recognition is the first stage. Once you exit the recognition stage, you enter the next stage, which is, okay, I recognize I need a new car. The next one is determining needs. So I've recognized I have a need. Now let's determine what those needs are, and I should mention in these first two stages our selling team isn't selling at all. Their understanding there, probing, their educating. They're not trying to sell anything. It's too early to be selling. This is about understanding and ultimately being able to guide our customers to their best outcome based on our expertise. So determining needs is where you say, okay, do I want a truck or do I want a car? Do I need a four do or two? Do it? Do I care about a convertible? Do I need a minivan? So determining needs is where you start collecting the requirements ultimately for the piece of equipment that you want to buy. Once you get through determining need, you enter evaluating options, and this is pretty natural to us as humans. Right do I need something? Yeah, I do. Okay, what do I want? Well, I have some choices. When I look at the choices, I then evaluate those options. Well, how much does a tesla cost versus something else, and can I really get that cool electric vehicle? Or, you know, what do I really need? And then I evaluate the options. Once I take a look at all my options, I narrow them down to a couple of key choices, maybe the two or three taught opportunities that seem to meet my requirements. And once I evaluate those, I start resolving concerns. Resolving concerns being the fourth stage. I'm like, all right, I've got a good choice in car a and car be. Which one do I really want? Why? I resolve some concerns. The warranty wasn't quite as good in this one. Is that one? Work with the other guy? Can you extend the warranty? Then, ultimately, the final stage is selection. So those are the five stage. It's recognition, determining needs, evaluating options, resolving concerns and then making a selection. And some of them. That's important. That a lot of companies, if they do have a sales process, don't do, and I highly recommend, is for...

...a prospect or an opportunity to move through the pipe from recognition ultimately to selection. We require that the prospect executes an activity before we move them from stage to stage. So we don't allow our sales people to say, Whoo, I just had a great meeting there in the selection stage, we're going to win the deal. It's like, wait a minute, you haven't gone through all the all the all the toll gates to get there. And so every single stage a customer needs to do something to be to be moved to the next stage. And why is that important? Because if you let salespeople do it, they will have misalignment because they didn't get confirmation from an activity from the prospect, and you will have sales cycle elongation, which means your cycle times are going to go up and your win rates are going to go down. Your costs are going to go up. So what's the matter with that higher cost? Well, less wins and longer time to do that. So it's really important that you have a prospect perform an activity before you move them from stage to stage. That has been very effective for us. I think that's really smart and what a great structured process. How did you guys get here? How did it how did it along? Did it take to develop a process like this and I'm just kind of curious what kind of pain you went through to arrive where you are today with something that's so discipline. Well, it's good question and I wish I could say invented all the school stuff myself, but I didn't. We work with a company back in around two thousand and eight when I was active it, and an epicore. The company called SPC, sales benchmark index, and there's a bunch of sorry, Spi. There's a bunch of companies like that that specialized in sales process consulting and we hired them and we hired them for two years and they worked with our leadership team. They helped us develop the metrics. They actually did ride alongs with our sales people to talk to customers to understand the buying journey. So we were quite scientific about it and because we didn't have a great sales process, we thought it would be great to bring in people that have done it over and over and over again. So that's where we learned it and developed it and since then I've taken those learnings to each company I've been to and tweak them for the market, because every sales process isn't the same. It really depends on the market, the buyers journey, the equipment be to be versus B Toc, etc. Something that really stands out from everything you just said is how customer centric you are in your sales approach and you take the time to understand what those people care about, to interview them, to collect insights from their mouths, and I just see this step being overlooked. So many assumptions being made in the sales process, so much focus on this is what we do and this is what we sell, and I think that you've been really smart to start with the customer, what they care about, what they're telling you and what their buyers journey looks like, and build around that. You know, Joe, everybody falls into the trap of thinking we know it all. You know, we've been doing our job for so long. We know exactly why we lost this deal or exactly why we won that deal,...

...and it's amazing how often we're wrong. We're recently working with another firm called double check that specializes and windlass analysis, and they're going through each of our product lines and the insights that we're getting from customer interviews. What they do, by the way, is they they call customers and go spend a thirty to forty five minute session interviewing them about why did you select Harpalcolma or why didn't you select Harpalc Alma? How is their sales process? How is their team? What do you think about their equipment? How about their ease of doing business or their reputation? And it's amazing the things you learn. One of them that's was pretty interesting and should have been obvious is how very important service and support is to people. It was universally the number one thing that came out of nearly every conversation and we kind of take it for granted. We've got a great sales, great sales team, but an incredible service team spread out throughout the country, team of about sixty people, and we just get used to knowing that they're good and forget how important it is. And the the learning there and the insight we have is we need to put that more upfront when we're in these selling stages, to make sure that we're emphasizing how good we are at that, how important it is to them and how it keeps them up and running. So that was a good learning there were many others, but you always think you know it all and you almost never do. Yeah, you're right on the money there, and I've seen your double check report. Given that we are companies work together and it's exceptional. I would encourage companies to look at what double checks doing, because they're the insights a come out of that are at the absolute exact things that should be fueling your marketing and sales strategy. Yeah, they're a great company like yours. We've teamed with them quite intimately where we kind of think of your company in their company as part of our team. You know, we're very transparent with everything, as you know. So it really enhances our ability to do a good job by having people like you and double check and others support us with specialized skills. I appreciate that. If everybody listening, I gave Kevin a discount on next month's bill to say that. So there's one is kid. Well, Kevin, you and I've known each other for a little over a year or so now, and one of the things I've heard you talk about numerous times, or couple things I've heard you talk about our one oee or overall equipment effectiveness and to TCEO, or total cost of ownership. A good percentage of our audience here our machine builders or some sort of equipment manufacturer, and these content, these are concepts that really, in most cases, should be front and center in their sales conversations with prospects, but I know that's not always the case. So I'm curious if you could talk a little bit about by why both oe and Ticeo really need to be a part of the sales conversation. Absolutely and and like a good sales process. I think this is an area that many manufacturers excel at, some are okay at it and some totally ignore it. So it's again, it's a mixed bag.

But there are excellent companies that focus on this and all the way to ones that don't even know what oe stands for. And, as you said, oh, he is an acronym for overall equipment effectiveness. It has basically three parts. It has availability, which is the percentage of a schedule time that the machines able to operate. So it's basically uptime. Is the machine able to run? The next is performance. It's designed to run at four hundred packages a minute. Are you getting four hundred packages a minute out of the machine or is it a little bit slower than we promised as when we sold the machine? And that will make a big difference. So availability, is uptime, performances, speed. The next is quality. is every single package, in this case, because we make packaging lines, is every single package perfect? Or do some of them have leakers? Or was some of the registrate registrated artwork not perfect? Ultimately those non perfect packages are scrap. The way the math works is it's like a rolled throughput yield calculation. You take the percentage availability times the percentage of performance, times the percentage of quality and you get a fraction that is a percentage of the perfect number of one hundred percent. Were World Class. o Ee is about eighty five percent and oe at eighty five percent is pretty tough to get. The best can get it. And it also depends on how complicated the line is, because the more elements in a line they all contribute and it's a serial calculation. So if you have twenty elements, even if they're all at ninety nine percent, you're going to take a big hit on oee. Let me give you an example in my world of a packaging machine oi and we do often achieve eighty five percent on lines? Not Always, but often depends on a lot of other things. So let's take this example. Why does why do I care about Oee? Well, I just saw the system to produce some packages at four hundred packages a minute. This particular company is going to run three seven hour shifts to day, six days a week, fifty weeks a year, so a lot of run time. So total gross production, if they were a hundred percent oee, would be a hundred and fifty one point two million packages. It's a lot of packages, however, because we know no one gets hundredercent oe and eighty five percent is world class. If they got eighty five percent, they would produce a net of a hundred and twenty eight million point five packages. That's really good. Keep in mind. That's world class. If that same system that I just gave you examples of eighty five percent rand only at eighty three, and keep mind eighty three is darn good too. But if it will only missed that eighty five percent world class by just two percentage points, they would lose three million packages a year. Three million packages a year. This particular company sells the product for about a dollar each and they have a thirty five percent gross margin, which is pretty normal. So two points of oe just cost you three million dollars of revenue and a million dollars a profit. That's why oe matters. And you could be in...

...a position where, if you're not producing at the rate you thought you were, even if it isn't eighty five percent, maybe you planned around eighty percent and you're running seventy and I've seen it as low as forty, then you're going to be shorting orders and you're going to lose customers because you can't deliver. So there's immense impact if you can't operate tightly. That makes sense on the Oh yeah, absolutely, and so so if all of a sudden you can start framing your sales conversations around this with a simple mathematical model to paint a picture for somebody, I imagine it's really going to resonate. It really does, and we believe in oe so much we've outfitted all of our machines to monitor and report their oee every day. So at the end of a shift our machines email a report to us and our customers and it says okay, the Oe for this shift was eighty three percent. And of the reasons that you had downtime, we collect every single fault and we capture and count the frequency of that fault. We measure the duration of each fault and we accumulate in categories all the faults in the time that they contributed to downtime. We then sort those in a pratotype fashion and we issue the top ten contribute is to downtime right off the machine every day. Why is that great? Because it gives you actionable insights. Okay, number one is my number one item that caused me downtime. It was a hundred minutes. All Right, I'm going to focus on that. And ultimately we have our text reviewing these reports every day and calling customers and saying, you know, you're having a lot of these falls. Typically we find this is the cause. You may want to look at this and we work with them to bring their ow ee up into the right over time. And what happens is once you kill the number one reason, now your work on number two and number three and new reasons emerge. So it's a way to continuously improve and get your oee up into the right yeah, that's great stuff. How do you bring that into a sales conversation with a new prospect who you're not yet working with? Kevin, what we do is we have a couple of models, tools that we built for the sales force so that they can show the impact of Oie and we let them model different lines and has. There's a lot of user inputs that we have a discussion about, so that a lot of people are resistant to giving you all the data. But if you have a model and you can show here's how our equipment works, let's plug in some of your assumptions and actuals with some of your equipment and let's show you the financial impact on your operation and then they start to loosen up when they see you know how big it can be and how impactful it can be on their on their PNL. So we build tools, spread cheets and a light that allow our salespeople to engage in the conversation and a friendly way that they can get some instant results and see if they can take it to the next step. Let's go back to the second party of question, which was TCO, equally important and really more of an umbrella than even oe, but a little bit more difficult to measure. So TCO is an acrimen for total cost of ownership. What's my total cost for owning and operating this piece of equipment? It's a financial...

...estimate intended to help a buyer understand direct and indirect costs. Too often buyers just look at acquisition price. They don't look at all the other things that matter. So TCO not only considers oee, but it considers other costs like training cost, spear parts cost, service called cost, everything associated with running and producing, in my case packages, everything that is considered. So you can say in five years or every year, this is my real cost for this. Now we'll give another example. will go back to the automobile. If you've got a car that is, say, Twentyzero to buy and another one is Thirtyzero, which is the better one to buy? You don't have enough information to answer that because you want to be total cost of ownership thoughtful. So if I probe and learn a little bit more about these two cars, I find that the car, this Twentyzero, requires the oil to be changed every thirty minutes. Now that's a little bit dramatic, and the other car, car B I, can change the oil once a year. Now all of a sudden I can look at my total cost and find out that I'm paying five thousand dollars a are in oil changes on car a and only fifty dollars on car B. over a five or ten year period, that car that was fifty percent more expensive from an acquisition perspective is fifty percent less expensive to own overall over the time life of that asset. So we shared this too with our customers. By the way, you asked about like how do we bring into a sale cycle? We've built a TCO model that allows us to work with the customer and look at their operation, and their operations are always different. So they have different pieces of equipment that is feeding our equipment and will have downstream equipment. We we're doing case packing and palletizing, and there's different amounts of labor on the line. Any time a machine pauses or isn't running, you have what we call stranded Labor, so you've got bodies standing around being paid not producing. TCO contemplates that, including contemplating the need to add overtime or extra shifts to make up for the shortfall of your targeted production output. So TCO is kind of the next level of above Oee, where you zooma and you look at the whole picture of owning an operating that machine from acquisition to retirement. So, Kevin, for those listening who are thinking to themselves, man, we really need to overhaul the way we're going to market with our sales team, where would you point them in terms of resources for starting to make some changes? So, if you don't have some folks in house that understand these concepts, I would recommend that you get a specialist like we did back about ten, twelve years ago, to help you through the journey. I can give you some highlights things that I've learned along this journey. Again, it starts with understanding your buyers journey, your buyers path. What do they go through? What's going to be comfortable for them? You don't want to be misaligned. Give you an example. Let's say I go on the web and I look at mortgage rates and I'm just...

...kind of curious. Maybe I want to refinance my house and save a little money. Interest rates it down and I just look at it and then I close my computer. Next Day some dude from rocket mortgage knocks on my door with a package to close on the mortgage. I'M gonna go. Who Are you? What are you doing here? I'm not at that stage. I was just poking around. I'm I'm in the recognition phase and you're trying to close me. Very uncomfortable. So you want to understand the buyers journey. You also want to understand that most companies now have buying teams, not buyers. It used to be back in the day you had one person that you went into, he brought your catalogs in and you talked about equipment and your sold the deal. Today, the average buying team, depending on the industry, is five or six people and they're made up of different departments. Is Engineering operation, sometimes marketing, could be finance. So you need to also understand that there is a buying team, not a buying individual, and you need to understand the personas of those buying individuals, the individuals on the buying team, because they have different wins that they're seeking. Some are looking for the sexiest package in the world, others are looking for the lowest cost or the smallest footprint in a factory because they don't have a lot of space. So it's really important to identify the different people that are influencing the buying decision. What are the personal wins they are looking for and how do you address and satisfy those winds? So I think it's really important to understand that is a buying team and that they all have different needs and different wants and you better pay attention to all of them. I mentioned this when you ask me about our sales process, but I think the next thing you want to do is, once you identify the biased journey and you set your own stages, make sure that you're causing a prospect to make to execute an activity before you move them. Don't let the sales team just move people through the process because they're feeling good about stuff. Sales people have rose because of colored glasses, because they have to. They get one knows than yeses every day, so they have to always be optimistic, and that optimism influences the process and distorts it. Frankly, it causes the cycle to Elongate, it causes the wind rates to go down and ultimately for the sales team to be less successful. Additionally, I'd say make sure you pay attention to any silos in your organization that are causing friction or a lack of harmony, and I'm talking about sales and marketing in this case. All too often the sales and marketing teams are going at the market in different way days that I coordinated whatsoever. You have to have unify identical positioning, branding, value props and that sort of thing, and you can't be having the team's targeting different accounts and with different tools and different messages. It just confuses everyone. You know, in the end it's the two sides of the same coin. To get that together, they need to be linked and synchronized, and we do that, and we didn't always do it. We have our sales and marketing teams meet all the time...

...and we have common goals and strategies. That's another thing that I would suggest there was a if there was a reshare button, I could be pushing on everything you just said. I'd be, you know, hammering it home, because I think everybody, everybody out there who's leading manufacturing organizations, needs to hear this. These are the things we talk about all the time and the things that I see broken ninety percent of the time with companies like you guys, and I'd love seeing that you've you've thought the stuff through you've figured it out, you've put processes in place and you're reaping the benefits of that. So very cool, Kevin. Is there anything I didn't ask you that you'd like to add to the conversation today? There is, Joe, especially for the audience here. We build equipment and equipment of alls over time and get smarter and better and more efficient. I think it's important for companies like US and some of the folks out in your audience is to make sure they have a really cohesive strategy. I think it's important to set a five or ten year goal of where you going, and we did that our cells and we identified a four stage strategy that we thought would really excite our customers to know where they're going. Keep in mind capital equipment last anywhere between ten and twenty years, so the machines that you're getting from us today are going to be around for a long, long time. Our strategy is to is what we call smart, connected machines and it is an evolution where our machines will get better every day. An example I'll use here, coincidentally enough, is going to be another car example. I don't know I'm on the car examples today, but dumb, unconnected machines is what cars used to be. You would buy a car and it never got better. It never got better gas mileage over time. It didn't have better breaking didn't have better safety, didn't have new features. You bought it, you used it, it died, you threw it away. Tesla came out with smart, connected vehicles where every day that passes there's an opportunity for software push that's going to improve its safety, it's range, it's feature set, that sort of thing, and that's our approach with our machines. So we're building smart, connected machines that are going to evolve even after you buy them. They're going to continue to get better. Then this is where the strategy comes in, because they're buying machines our last ten of twenty years. I believe a strategy that shows them how this machine is going to be better in five years and ten years than it was when they bought it is very compelling. Our four stage strategy starts with, first of all, replatforming our machines with rock will automation, controls and software, and we've completed that. Next, we have augmented reality for training and for Diagnostics. Many of our customers in the food industry especially have thirty, forty, fifty percent and polley turnover, so they're always training new people. Augmented reality with the use of ipads or hollow lenses and other things is a game changer in human productivity outcomes, safety and asset management. So we see thirty to fifty percent productivity gains by using are for training and diagnostics, and...

...we're in three pilots right now. From there we're looking at collecting masses amount amounts of data or data lakes so that we can apply machine learning and AI and then ultimately we're able to tie the machine control system into the AAR so we can float information in the year around the machine, tell them them what the seal temperature is or, if there's a problem, how to fix it, guiding them physically through the machine and D so I think setting a compelling vision is nothing but helpful to enhancing the sales team's ability to tell the story and have it be compelling to know that my competitive machine is ten years is going to be as dumb and when as you bought it yesterday. Mine is going to be ten years of all at that point. So that's the other part of our story I want to share. That's great, I love it. Kevin, this was an awesome conversation. So much to be learned from what you shared today. So really appreciate you doing this. It's my pleasure, very happy to do so. Joe, we're where can our audience get in touch with you? How's the best way for them to learn more about HARTPAC Almah as well? Yeah, so please visit our website, which is hard pack almadcom, or contact us at email info at Hartpack almadcom or give us a call. Five waight hundred and eight four hundred and twenty five hundred. That sounds great. And, Kevin, I imagine people can find you on Linkedin and connect their for sure. Great. Well, great conversation and you know, I'm just really glad that that we got to do this. I think some of the topics we touched on today are things that manufacturers are thinking about and some of them may be embracing it, but you know, others, I know aren't because I talked to a lot of manufacturing people. So a lot of good nuggets here and Kevin, once again, thanks for joining me. My pleasure. Joke. As for the rest of you, I hope to catch you on the next episode of the Manufacturing Executive you've been listening to the manufacturing executive podcast. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you'd like to learn more about industrial marketing and sales strategy, you'll find an ever expanding collection of articles, videos, guides and tools specifically for be tob manufacturers at gorilla seventy sixcom learn thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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