The Manufacturing Executive
The Manufacturing Executive

Episode · 1 year ago

I Need What's In Your Brain: Extracting Expert Knowledge for Content Marketing w/ Toby Wall

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

What happens when your competitors are talking about themselves but you are producing resourceful content? You win! 

So how can you write helpful technical content for manufacturers? First, it needs to come from the brains of subject matter experts. Second, you need to extract that knowledge from their brains and use their insights to fuel your marketing strategy. 

Toby Wall, thinker and senior writer at Gorilla76, joined this episode of the podcast to discuss how to create great content in the manufacturing space.

Toby and I talk about:

  • Where should content expertise originate?
  • Why should subject matter experts expect to play a role in content creation?
  • How do you extract expert knowledge and turn it into credible content?

Resources we talked about:

To ensure that you never miss an episode of The Manufacturing Show, subscribe on Apple Podcasts, or Spotify, or here.

Even though technical documents are myfavorite thing to read, that's not going to matter to the to an audiencethat we're trying to reach. If I don't also know how to stitch those thingstogether. Welcome to the manufacturing executivepodcast, where we explore the strategies and experiences that aredriving midsize manufacturers. florward here you'll discover new insights frompassionate manufacturing leaders who have compelling stories to share abouttheir successes and struggles and youill learn from BTB sales andmarketing experts about how to apply actionable business developmentstrategies inside your business. Let's get Ino the show welcome to another episode of themanufacturing executive, podcast, thes showis being brought to you by oursponsor cadinus part solutions, dum, Joe Sullivan, your host and a cofounderof the Industrial Marketing Agency, Gerilla, seventy six. So when welaunched this podcast a few months ago, I wanted to sprinkle in sprinkle in asolo cast every four episodes or so where, instead of me interviewingsomeone else, I'd share some of my own insights on sales and marketing topicsand specific to the industrial sector. But I'm one person and I COODEN CO onan agency of Nineteen who collectively possess deep expertise in a variety ofthings: Industrial Marketing Related. So instead of me talking your ear offtoday, I'm going to put the spotlight on our senior copyrighter Toby Wall andwe're going to have a conversation about content marketing morespecifically we're going to dive into a couple things. First, why effectivecontent for manufacturing organizations really needs to come from the brains ofyour true subject matter: Experts and second, how you can go about extractingthe knowledge from the brains of those deep experts inside your company anduse those insights to fuel your marketing strategy? I'm excited aboutthis conversation because content, marketings, AF personal passion of mineand it's such an important topic for BTB manufacturers when your competitorsare talking all about themselves, but you, on the other hand, are producingresourceful content that helps and guides and earns the trust andattention of the people you're trying to reach you're going to win. So onthat note, let me take a moment to introduce toby wall senior writer. TobyWall joined our agency GRIRLA. Seventy six, almost four years ago in his tenurhe's developed special expertise in areas including industrial thermalprocessing, automation, technology, industrial facility, construction andcommodity dairy product trading. In addition to producing writan work, tobyproduces a Nich podcast for one of our clients. That's reached all thut one USstate. Sixty eight countries around the world prior to joining the company Tobywas a newspaper reporter in Illinois. He covered breaking news and state andlocal government toby. Welcome to the show thanks Joe good to be here. Well, let's get right into it. So Tobyyou wrote an article in our learning center. That immediately became one ofmy favorites earlier this year. Use It all the time I send it to clients andprospects, because I think it's just it really hammers home a really importantpoint, but the the piece was about how to create effective content and it'stitled. I need what's in your brain, why we insist on interviewing subjectmatter experts and from your experience as a writer working specifically withmanufacturers who, in those organizations have you found, are thoseexperts, so the engineers atd a sales engineer, sales people, I'm just kindof curious. What what your take is on, where that expertise needs to come fromyeah generically engineer is usually where it comes from, but there's allkinds of engineers right, so project engineers, facility engineers, designengineers, corporate engineers, electrical engineers, productionengineers at think of...

...an engineer of any kind. We haveprobably spoken with with that persona, but and s there's other ones too. It'snot just engineers. You know, sales folks are always very valuable to us.They're the people talking to an audience pretty much every day we foundthem to be a great con. Do It between us and you know less on the marketingside and then whatever our intended goal is other examples: projectmanagers, supervisors or superintendents, and there I'm you know,construction projects or contractors or subcontractors. That person is reallyhelpful to us when we can get a hold of them. Draftsmen estimators, auditors, reallyany any boring sounding. I hate to say it that way, but anor oing GOB title ina manufacturing organization is usually where we hit pater. Now it's not just about people. There's youknow physical things that I would consider subject matter of experts tooright. The this is t the paper trail of you know all of these people, so we'vehad great success. Looking at RFIS and RFPS and RFKS, we like to see estimates. Sometimes Iask for envoices drawings CAD models. renderings specks are great. You knownot only just from background technical information, but something we canpublish. You know you look at a rendering or look at a cad drawing, andit's way better most of the time, in my opinion, than a paragraph. But then we,you know sales, decks, training, decks, traide, show materials, compliancedocuments, oudict reports, statutory reports. You got to file Wat, the EPA,let's say in certain industries and then even lawsuits like if you supposthat what you can learn about a company or its business by what they're gettingsued over. Obviously that's, not something our clients usually volunteer.We prack that down on our own and Ian, I'm not out there snooping for lawsuits,but it's always it's useful. It's alluseful yeah! That's it's an interesting way to answer that question and becauseI hadn't really thought about it from the perspective of you now thinkingabout people who are the brains we need to tap into. But in addition to that,it's you know there are so many resources and things that you knowyou've already created inside your company for one reason or another, andyou created it for a reason and whether it's that thing you created orsomething that's stored in the brains of an engineer or some other technical,professional or salesperson, it kind of all comes down to what are the things the customer caresabout right. What are the questions they're trying to get answered? Whatare the things they're trying to achieve and you want to get you want tofind that knowledge inside your company and figure out how to harness thatknowledge and be able to deliver it to the client? Is that fair to say it's fair and I think you know Imentioned this exhaustive list of documentary evidence.If you will of things that help us doubt, I don't mean to understate howimportant those people still are to that. You know I do want that mountainof files, but if I don't have someone to talk to about those Iyou know for me,it would be like trying to read a new language. I wouldn't know what to dowith it. So it's like the subject matter. Experts are really importantand, what's in their brains, is really important, and even though technicaldocuments are my favorite thing to read, that's not going to matter to the to anaudience that we're trying to reach. If I don't also know how to stitch thosethings together and put it in a in a contextor in the language that thesepeople are going to respond to so it...

...like, I said it's all all of it matters,so I need you ow. The article says I need what's in your brain, I also wantwhat's in their hard drives, if I could get bro, that's perfect! That's a goodanswer. I mean for my observations. It seems that a lot of BDB organizationswho maybe haven't done a lot of this have a done a lot of contect creation,maybe they've marketed more traditionally. Trade Shows Prin ads,maybe paper click or things, but maybe they haven't really gotten into thisidea of harnessing their expertise and publishing expert content. You knowit's a lot of them seem to expect that the marketer, whether that's aninternal person on their staff or an agency like Garilla, a freelance writer,O or Mar Market I should say or whatever it is, is the one who shouldbe responsible for creating all the marketing content, and you know,although marketing may own that task, you argue in your article that theycan't really do it effectively without tapping into the brains of the subjectmatter, experts in some way, so you talk a little bit more for me about why?Why you think it's so important for those technical professionals or deepsubject matter expert to be to for the expectation to be there that they aregoing to play a role in this content creation process? Yeah and forgive me if my cat inters eAFRE okay, this is the world we live in nowwe got. We got kids runing around. In the background we got cats jumping intothe picture: dogs, Bark in at's- that's color, toit, right practically everymeeting, I'm in Orny moreentering the frant Po. You want to be saming there,yes, so why is it important that these people are available, that we haveaccess to them? To answer that, I think you got to lookat the way niche be to be industrial. Marketing is a thing all unto itself,even though it also is a lot like every other kind of marketing. So let'spresume that you agree and that our listeners agree that engaging anaudience where they are demonstrating that you understand what theirchallenges are, that that is good marketing. Can we agree on that point?First of all, so if we agree that that is still true,regardless of what you're trying to mark up whether you're trying to marketcigarettes and iphones or trying to market the service lines for Metal,Organic Chemical Vapor, deposition tools, it's the same, but was that lastone? How do you reach Tho people interested in it's Mo? CVD is the abbreviation there.How do you reach them? And it's not by telling them that they're going to lookcool in front of their friends? You got to tell them about. You know like we said, the things thatthey care about. Well, they care about double containment and passivation, andelectropolishing and orbital wealth. Quality inspection like those are allcares. Those are all things that they that they're interested in thoseaddress challenges that they face. You know consumers care about looking coolin front of their friends, so it's it's the same principle from a marketingperspective. It's just the knowledge comes from different places right. Those are things that I mentioned. Thataudience cares about. Well, why do they care? Because if they don't do it right,you put air inside a Silane line, it explodes so it's different orders ofcaring, but were you know we approach that caring? So I need to know those kinds of things and unless I go study you know systemsengineering, I'm not going to know it. So I need those experts to be involved.I need I need to have you know not free total access to them, but I need toknow that they're available to answer these questions and help me make headsor tales of you know some kind of topic that our marketing strategy indicated.We need to to talk about to get this audience of theirs engaged...

...so I'll, stop there. Hopefully thatanswers the first part of that yeah. I think it's you know it's such a simplething right. It's it's! What your the title, O Your Article Says I needwhat's in your brain you're, not the expert! They are. Your job is toharness it and figure out how to pull that inside out right, yeah yeah, andso you asked about ownership too, and I agree. I think it's essential that themarketing, whether it's interpernal or outsource, owns that task kind ofdrives up, but it's it is in some ways it's a twoway street still and I'll. Give you an example of that, because we have onefallen to our laps this time last week, or maybe last Tuesday, we got a clientwho makes big ovens, industrial ovens, you put you name, it can go through these, thecarpeting that goes into the bottom of your car. You can do or these ovensthat make the phone that ends up being your Yoga Mat at home, and there was evidently some meeting.They had internal with a prospect. We were not involved and this prospect wasdiscussing a oven design that they were interestedin pursuing and our client during that conversation was proposing alternatives.To that saying what you're proposing you know in our experience doesn't worklet's, let's do it a different way and where we got involved in this and it'snot like, we helped in any way they just clude us into this conversation.But the man who was talking about these alternative design features. Let's callhim decided he could explain himself better in writing and a followup emailto his prospect while they forwarded that email to us too- and this was alike thirteen hundred word dissertation on Li- Do Point: is a bettermeasurement inside an oven chamber compared to relative humidity, or whydo you? Why do you want to Orient Masser orflow in certain directions, orhow do you position the sensors inside your hevent to determine airflow,velacity and humidity and do point in all these things? So we wouldn't have known that. Likethat's awesome, that's an awesome narrative we got, but we would neverhave come up with that idea ourselves to talk about it and it ended up being a you know. Weproposed a content piece based on this Guy's dissertation about dewpoint, nomatter how much ownership we have over the process andover the you know, the adventure of content,idiation, there's just some things that a marketer is not going to get or isn'tgoing to think about or waygs the that they don't think that a subject matterexpert thinks every day, and this was an example where they said: Hey, Ithink gorilla. Might you know see if they can see if they can turn this intosomething? His comment was try not to fall asleep reading this, but if youmanage to stay away, you know see if you can do something with it and then Itold our strategist. I think this is golden absolutely golden, so yes,ownership, it's important and if you have a good, you know a good marketingpartner, you'll see what that ownership looks like and those partners will makeit easy for you. But that doesn't mean you know: Don't take an active role init because there's all kinds of great material that we've gotten from clientsthat came from them, that they that they started it, that they showed us,and we wouldn't have known to even ask so I don Eit, tangible example. I meanit's and and it's straight from the customer right and there's a there's, aquote: I'm goin Ta Butcher Iht here, but it's from Marcus Sheridan's book.They ask you answer which I is arguably my my favorite. You know marketing bookout there and this goes something like...

...this. You know every time I get off asales call. You know, I think what questions did I answer on thatcall and have I answered that question in the form of content on my websiteyet and the example you gave from thatparticular Manufactureis, perfect example of that it's they heard this tthis question. They had written a thirteen hundred word email, they've,probably written a similar email, five other times on the same topic to asimilar type of customer. What, if you just had that out there? What if youhad written that already it was published on your website, it'soptimized in the search engines. Every time you get that question as opposedto starting from scratch and reinventing the wheel and typing anemail t at probably takes you an hour to write? U Tht time, You'e doneediting it. You say: Hey, you know what we covered. This topic, actually anarticle we published last year and I'm going to send that to you after we getoff the call- or you know just reply to the email with that and what it showsis well, first of all the work's done. Youve did the work already, you mightmake add a few notes on. Do It to you know, apply it to that particularsituation, but it also shows, if you think, about the about what impact thathas on the recipients end. It's so jees. These guys have have thought about thisbefore and they've thought about it enough that they actually wrote a youknow. Fifteen hundred word article that breaks it down like these guys areexperts. They know what they're talking about and what a great confidencebuilder right M Yeah the challenges. How do you not I'm? not this Isnin, a DIGA, Marcusanswering but BOT swimming pools the challenge there is: How do you? Howdo you find a way to apply the specific Doman was talking about this? You knowalternative design to XYZ type of thermal process. How do you? How do youmake that readable indigestible indrelevant to an audience greater thana one, but it can be done. I think you knowthat's partly partly why we're involved, why they hired US and why they send itto us, because they know something's there yep they just got ta good, Wenthe right way, t to rap it up. Yea I my take on that. Is it's all about patternmatching. If enough people have asked this question- and you know if eightypercent of the response to that question can be covered in a piece ofcontent. You publish it because it's enough todemonstrate to somebody that you get this topic and your piece of content isnot meant to play the whole role of sales person, not at all that the humanhuman conversation is where that happens. It needs to be enough to pequetheir interest to demonstrate that oh you've thought about this kind of thingbefore you'd be the one to answer my questions about it, and now you canhave a much more qualified conversation with somebody around that topic. Ithink, if you can accoplish that with a piece of content, it's done its job.I'd, even estimate that you don't have to answer eighty percent of theirquestions. You could answer one of their questions and the rest of it isirrelevant, but if it's good and if it shows you know- and I wish, if we hadanother half hour I'- just read this email- that he said yeah and you youwould see- I mean you- wouldn't even- have to be interested in, do point atall M and you would know you you qualify these guys right away becausethey know their stuff. Absolutely. It's super powerful we're going to take athirty second breether here for a word from our sponsor cadinus part solutions.Let's talk real quick about getting specified. Are you a componentmanufacturer? Maybe you sell architectural products to parks orlarge facilities, engineers and architects need models of your productsto test fit in their designs. That's where cadinus comes in to help youcreate a dynamic, sharable, cad catalogue. You put on your website.Designers can preview the product from...

...any angle and download it in the formatthey prefer. They get the data they need for their design and you get afresh lead to add to your marketing pipeline to get one of your productsturned into an online thred model for free use, the code executive at partSOLUTIONSCOM executive. So I want to jump over to another greatarticle. You wrote this time back in two thousand and nineteen and it we'regoing to get a little more tactical here now, but this one was titled Howto Extract Expert Knowledge from your team and turn it into incrediblecontent. This is a little more of a how to and I'd love for. You to be able toshare some actionaactionable advice with listeners about how they canapproach this sometimes really intimidating topic of content creationand keep in mind here, as you answer this question that, like you know, somea lot of a lot of our clients have the luxury of working with with you or oneof our. You know, super talented writers right, but a lot of timesmanufacturers. They need to be able to create this stuff internally, and maybeit's a marketing person internally. Maybe they don't even have a marketing.You know person on staff, but how can they go about? You know, I guess, firstof all generating ideas for content that would actually resonate with theiraudience yeah. So the first step that I noted in thatpiece is that the you need a framework around the entire thing. Just from thebeginning, you need to have strategy of some kind, because recognizing that you that you would benefit from alibrary of content and then deciding okay, I'm going to do some content. Youleave a whole lot on the table that you could maximize. If, if you thoughtabout it, a little more so you got Ta have a framework that canget you to something you've identified some some goal right, one of the ways you know we don't needto talk about. How do you do a strategy? I would say, subscribe to this podcastand you'll probably figure out how to do a strategy, but but once you've gotthat in my opinion, I think you got to get by and next you can't do this alone or, if youmaybe you're, a part of a internal team or nexternal team, but regardless youneed by in from subject matter experts or anyonedecision makers on your clients and Ar Oun the organizations ad. They need toknow what you're doing. Ideally, they agree with what you're doing and willhelp you so that that's how you that's, how you build sources you it's going totake time to do this program if you're going to to do it the right way. Ithink so. You need people who would be able to stand behind you and agree that you'r.What you're doing is worthwhile and agree to help you. If you need theirhelp, so you know get by it, definitely get by it now in terms of actuallygenerating ideas. The first thing on my list is, youmentioned already do what Marcus Jeridan does and just record everyquestion he sees or answers, and you know try to answer it and whetheryou answer it or find someone else whou. Can you know log that down another way you can do it is just you know. Brainstorming here havea have a conversation with a really loyal customer, or even somebody inyour industry who's, not a customer, but someone that you know you can talkto and just get the lay of the land another one could be. You know find outwhere your audience hangs out online. Find groups join groups an back in myreporting days. That's what we would do like if there was something you wantedto find out. There was a certain group of people who might have had youranswers, join their group and just say: Hey 'm, I'm here, I'm who I am this iswhy I a'me here anyone want to help. You Know Twenty fous century version oflike following the bars the cops to the bar after their shift dance and youknow building sources that way. Another...

...thing you might try is my seem kind of silly but select a couple. People in YourOrganization and buy him pizza twice a year and say you know, sit with me foran hour. Have some free pizza answer. My questions you'd be surprised to whatyou can learn just by getting someone in a room and when we've deone thisbefore with one of our clients, we bribed their entire sales, Geam wit thelunch, and you know we learned so much more about how how that business worksand it had to have come from those those sales team members, because thatwas like a missing link that we had that we needed so those are you know how do you, if Iwasgoing to wrap a bow around us? How do you generate content? Ideas is try tobe aware of all of the people who would be sharing those ideas and then make inroads with them Thas a all, really great ideas, so many different ways toget to it. It's th, the insights. Are there like thethe ideas they're right there, they're kind of at your finger tips, you kindof just have to put yourself out there and talk to theright people they're going to come up. Aand people like to talk about whatthey do it. You know, like. I said. The combination of tree pizza and hey tellme about your job like you will get people talking and once they'recomfortable, because they don't always start out being comfortable and they'relike why they hell. Are you asking me this stuff, but once they'recomfortable, they'll go on and on and on, and that's Payder, it's just asgood as any RFP or any lawsuit that I find online yeah Wellso we've talked here about whycontent matters we've talked about. Why you know why you need to get into thebrains of the experts. We've talked about how to generate ideas. The lastthing I really want to cover here is: can you can you sort of open up yourprocess a little bit like how, once somebody has gotten that far? What isthe creation process actually look like and from your Persu you're, a writerlike there's video content, there's audio content, there's a lot of ways todo content, and it's not that one is better than the next. But from yourperspective, as a writer, how can you start making some of the stuff turningit into something tangible? So how do you make it? You Got Ta, read you, because what you create has tocome from a position of authority and that's true, whatever you're marketing,but if you're going to market an industrial btb like I said before,you've got those Lo CVD service lines. Ow, you need to come from a position ofauthority, and let me tell you the people who you are. You know trying to reach ourauthorities, so research is absolutey paramount. Here you need to understand the context F of a topic. You need toknow what the vocabulary words were. You need to know what all thevocabwords that make up a vocabword mean you need to know. Ou know ifyou're talking about a process. Well, what comes before the process? Whatcomes after the process? What does this process make? Why does it make it thisway? Go, go, watch YouTube. Videos, see how something is done. Google imagesearch, something. What does this look like? What are the dissenting opinions?What are the commonly held opinions of a thing? You know the way Icharacterize it is researching around the topic right. Youneed to know more than what you're going to say. A lot of this stuff neverceased to light of day, but you need to do your research and you will thankyourself for it later and your audience will probably thank you for it too, and just I need to get on a stokeboxabout research, because in grade school they were telling us like don't usewikipedia wit Capedi is ban. You actually had wikipedi an grade schoolinlike me I had like you know: ENCYCLEEA Britannica, books and stuff.

Well, I maybe aside from EncyclopediaBritannica, I don't, I can't think of an online resource that gives more editorial scrutiny over its contentthan we could fet. You know, maybe, with the exception ofan encyclopedia like Britanica or like The New York Times, or something ifyou're going to like, and they cite their sources to so anyone who thinksopinion time here. Anyone who thinks what COT feetitis bad, I disagree. Itis very good and can lead you to other really great places. Now what comesnext, because it is a process, and this is something you know you can download.This we've got this on our website, but one of the the first things you need todo is devote the proper time to this. If you need to block off half a day orblock off a day or black off a week, you know doing this the right way, anmy opinion is not something you can hurry through, give it its time. Ithink you should. Then you know, as you consider the idea that you're about tocreate the you know create content around. How does that Aligon? With thestrategy we talked about making you know, is it going to work? If it does,okay go ahead if it doesn't maybe rethink it. Obviously interviewing could be a big part of thecontent. If you need to talk to an expert and so you're in Ay, questionsto ask this person so sit down and make your list of questions word to the wise. Do not try to editthis question list right now, just every question that comes to mind putit down. You will notice here. I have noticed, as you write these questions,the need for more research is going to come up. So it's not like you do fortyminutes of reading and then your reading is done and you move on towhatever is next you'll need to read some more probably so do more try toanswer the questions that you've posted. If you can answer a questionforyourself that you don't need to ask great youv saved your subject some timeor what happens more often in my case anyway, is when I try to answer my ownquestion. I planned a different way to ask the question or a more detailed way,to ask or a more relevant way. You know, within the context of the audience,we're trying to reach a way to ask that question. So it's like a feedback, loop interview,questions, research, interview, questions, research, keep just keepgoing, then at the end of the process, go ahead and give it a look at. I edityour questions, see if something doesn't make sense,see if you're being repetitive, a very important part of you know, editing quote, marks editinga question list is sharing those with the subject matter. Let this person seeit they. They know the about this stuff morethan you do right. They are the expert. Not only are they going to know ifyou're, if you're on the right track or not, but they can put you on the righttrack. Hey. I notice this question you're asking about Xyz. Well, actually,lmnop is the more relevant direction to go down. Ask It this way because that'sthat's relevant and then you know it unfolds from there. They they can setyou on the right track, or they can tell you you're totally wrong. Here is some morereading to do. Go do some more reading and I don't know if you know whetherthis needs to be said or not, but I've had someone asked in a presentation-and you might remember this Joe. We did this presentation together, but askwhether it's okay, to send interview questions in advance of a call inmarketing yeah. Absolutely it's! You know if you're in a newsroom, no, neverdo that. But in this case not only is it is it okay, I think it should be thenorm is to o get those in front of your subject matter expert in advance of thecall.

Well what about when you're doing theinterview? Maybe this is the part that makes people nervous. I mean it makesme nervous and I do it every day. Here's some! You know interview tipsthat will it's not going to guarantee you're going to get everything you need,but it'll put you in position for it if you're not getting what you need. Justask the question again or rephrase the question put in a different way: pushgently but push your interviewig. These people, like I said a moment ago, theymight be uncomfortable, they might not have ever done this before they mightbe reluctant. They might think they don't want to. They don't want to saysomething too complex, so part of part of our job is interviewersis to put them at ease and say, like you know, say, say t the way you needto say it, and I will stop you if this is too complicated or if I need you toexplain it I'll tell you that you need to explain it, but you know: Don't we don't lant them tocensor themselves. Another another thing I've found useful is to be upfront with these folks about what I, what I don't know. I think it'stempting for an interviewer to censor themselves, they're afraid to lookstupid in front of someone who's smarter than them well in this world, everybody. If I'mtalking about me, everybody is smarter than me so, like I don't know a lot ofstuff, it's my job not to know but to find out. So don't censor yourself. AskRookie questions. If you have to ask forafy questions but get theinformation that you need. One tactic I find that helps there is to posttheoreticals or make assumptions with with your interview subject, even when, even if you think- or youknow, you might be way off on that. If you want someone to explain a topic ina way that matters are in a way that makes sense to your audience. It's almost like role playing you knowsay I am someone in your audience and this is aproblem I'm having or this is a process I might need to implement and and juststart throwing variables out there. What would happen if I did this watwould happened. If I did that you know just kind of it's almost likeexploratory surgery. If you will but assumptions, even wrong ones are goingto end up solidifying your understanding of a topic which isbesides the point. The point is it'll, make you able to translate that topicin a way that if you only got just the textbook definition of the thing youknow wouldn't have been as good at doing another. Another consideration, I guess,is to not treat your interview document likea stone tablet. If you need to go off script chase something down, you know you should you should go forit? We talk about this all the time, theother writers arlies. If we had a dollar for every time, we had to dothat and skip questions or depart from the question. listor just delete theentire document. Altogether we could retire, you know it's, it happens and I thinkinterviewers shouldn't feel chained. You know, even though the prep work isimportant, don't feel chamed to it, because you know the conversationisgoing to go or it's going to go. Don't don't limit yourself to just thequestions you were asking and you know what do you do after that?Well, you'R, as grace my colleague would say, is you write the Dang thingand I don't really want to get into? How do you write a blocg post, but an important aspect of yourrelationship with the subject matter. Expert here is: Make sure they can seeit give them you let them review it, and I think this is. I can't think of aclient we've had where we did not have a subject, met or expert available todo these edits and you know tell it to...

...us blunt track changes, Kno you'rewrong. Here's what's right, we need them. It's almost like you know. Why do wetalk to sales people because they speak the language right? These people aregoing to know not only factually what needs to be in a piece or where you'veaired and where to put you back on track, but then they can. They can sayit the way that it needs to be said in that industry, it all through juniorhigh right. They were telling US jargon as bad. Well, once you graduate enjoina be O, the Industrial Marketing Agency jargon is good and you're going to needthose people to tell you what that is so and there's you know, there's allkinds of other ways you can branch off of that in terms of getting feedbackfrom somebody, and I would encourage folks to read grace wrote a piecefairly recently about how to give that feedback to a a writing partner, butthat I think you know if this conversation is alittle galaxy. That's part of the wider universe that I think almost as anatural extension of the rest of this process. That's great! Well, Toby! You covered a ton here, somany valuable insights, any any parting words before we wrappd this up. Don'tguess if I had to etch it etch it onto my tonestone toby's number one rule ofindustrial btob copywriting is don't guess so make friends with yourengineers bribe en with pizza love. It bow that there's the quote of theepisode right there make friends with your engineers and Bribe Hem with pizza.Well, wll telby you and I among many aser others that Gorrillav hadcountless conversations and debates about these topics we covered today,and I love that we got to do it publicly this time because Thik, yourexperience is over the last four years or so in the industrial sector. orevealed a lot about what works and what doesn't and how to do contenteffectively. So thanks it done for for doing this with me today. Glad to do it.Can you can you tell listeners, you know how they can connect with you ifthey want to learn more sure, I'm never on linked in. So that'shier. I might reply like four weeks if, after thats, the cree, but really ifyou want to email me, it's real easy. It's toby at Gerilla, eventy, sixcom,at's, TLB Y at Garilla, eventy Sixcom, and I will answer that I'll, probablyanswer in thirty seconds but perfect, that's simple enough! Wellbefore we wrap it up, I want to say a big thank you to our sponsor cadinuspart solutions for helping make. This show possible well again, thanks fordot joining toby and for the rest of you, I hope to catch you on the nextepisode of the Manufacturing Executive. You've been listening to themanufacturing executive podcast to ensure that you never missed an episodesubscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you'd like to learnmore about industrial marketing and sale strategy, you'll find an everexpanding collection of articles, videos guides and tools specificallyfor btob manufacturers at Gerilla. Seventy SIXCOM flashwarn. Thank you somuch for listening until next time.

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