The Manufacturing Executive
The Manufacturing Executive

Episode · 1 year ago

I Need What's In Your Brain: Extracting Expert Knowledge for Content Marketing w/ Toby Wall

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

What happens when your competitors are talking about themselves but you are producing resourceful content? You win! 

So how can you write helpful technical content for manufacturers? First, it needs to come from the brains of subject matter experts. Second, you need to extract that knowledge from their brains and use their insights to fuel your marketing strategy. 

Toby Wall, thinker and senior writer at Gorilla76, joined this episode of the podcast to discuss how to create great content in the manufacturing space.

Toby and I talk about:

  • Where should content expertise originate?
  • Why should subject matter experts expect to play a role in content creation?
  • How do you extract expert knowledge and turn it into credible content?

Resources we talked about:

To ensure that you never miss an episode of The Manufacturing Show, subscribe on Apple Podcasts, or Spotify, or here.

Even though technical documents are my favoritething to read, that's not going to matter to the to an audience thatwe're trying to reach, if I don't also know how to stitch those thingstogether. Welcome to the manufacturing executive podcast, where we explore the strategies and experiencesthat are driving midsize manufacturers forward. Here you'll discover new insights from passionatemanufacturing leaders who have compelling stories to share about their successes and struggles, andyou'll learn from B tob sales and marketing experts about how to apply actionable businessdevelopment strategies inside your business. Let's get into the show. Welcome to anotherepisode of the Manufacturing Executive podcast. This show is being brought to you byour sponsor, codinas part solutions. I'm Joe Sullivan, your host and acofounder of the Industrial Marketing Agency gorilla seventy six so when we launched this podcasta few months ago, I wanted to sprinkle in, sprinkle in a solocast every four episodes or so where, instead of me interviewing someone else,I'd share some of my own insights on sales and marketing topics and specific tothe industrial sector. But I'm one person and I coodin co own an agencyof nineteen who collectively possess deep expertise and of variety of things industrial marketing related. So instead of me talking your ear off today, I'm going to putthe spotlight on our senior copywriter, Toby Wall, and we're going to havea conversation about content marketing. More specifically, we're going to dive into a couplethings. First, why effective content for manufacturing organizations really needs to comefrom the brains of your true subject matter experts and, second, how youcan go about extracting the knowledge from the brains of those deep experts inside yourcompany and use those insights to fuel your marketing strategy. I'm excited about thisconversation because content marketing is a personal passion of mine and it's such an importanttopic for be tob manufacturers. When your competitors are talking all about themselves,but you, on the other hand, are producing resourceful content that helps andguides and earns the trust and attention of the people you're trying to reach,you're going to win. So on that note, let me take a momentto introduce toby wall, senior writer. Toby Wall joined our agency, Grilla, seventy six, almost four years ago. In his tenure he's developed special expertisein areas including industrial thermal processing, automation technology, industrial facility construction andcommodity dairy product trading. In addition to producing written work, toby produces aniche podcast for one of our clients that's reached all but one US state sixtyeight countries around the world. Prior to joining the company, Toby was anewspaper reporter in Illinois. You covered breaking news and state and local government.Toby, welcome to the show. Thanks, Joe. Good to be here.Well, let's get right into it. So, Toby, you wrote anarticle in our learning center that immediately became one of my favorites earlier thisyear. Use It all the time. I send it to clients and prospectsbecause I think it's just it really hammers home a really important point. Butthe piece was about how to create effective content and it's titled I need what'sin your brain. Why? We insist on interviewing subject matter experts and fromyour experience as a writer working specifically with manufacturers, who in those organizations haveyou found? ARE THOSE EXPERTS? So the engineers and they sales engineers,sales people. I'm just kind of curious what your take is on where thatexpertise needs to come from. Yeah, generically engineer is usually where comes from, but there's all kinds of engineers, right. So project engineers, facilityengineers, design engineers, corporate engineers, electrical engineers, production engineers. Thatthink of an engineer of any kind,...

...we have probably spoken with with thatpersona. But and these there's other ones too. It's not just engineers,you know, sales folks are always very valuable to us. They're the peopletalking to an audience pretty much every day. We found them to be a greatconduit between us and you know us on the marketing side and then whateverour intended goal is. Other examples project managers, supervisors or superintendents, andthere I'm you know, construction projects, or contractors or subcontractors. That personais really helpful to us when we can get a hold of them. Draftsmen, estimators, auditors, really any any boring sounding. I hate to sayit that way, but anymore founding job title in a manufacturing organization is usuallywhere we hit paid or now it's not just about people there's, you know, physical things that I would consider subject matter experts to write that. Thisis the the paper trail of, you know, all of these people.So we've had great success looking at Urfis and URFP's and ourfqs. We liketo see estimates. Sometimes I ask for invoices. Drawings, CAD models,renderings, specs are great, you know, not only just from background technical information, but something we can publish. You know, you look at arendering or look at a cad drawing and it's way better most of the timein my opinion. Then a paragraph. But then we you know, salesdecks, training decks, trade show materials, compliance documents, audit reports, statutoryreports you got to file with the EPA, let's say in certain industries, and then even lawsuits, like if most. Is that what you canlearn about a company or its business by what they're getting sued over? Obviouslythat's not something our clients usually volunteer. We crack that down on our ownand it and I'm not out there snooping for lawsuits, but it's always it'suseful. It's all useful. Yeah, that's it's an interesting way to answerthat question and because I hadn't really thought about it from the perspective of youknow, I was thinking about people who are the brains we need to tapinto. But in addition to that, it's you know, there are somany resources and things that you know you've already created inside your company for onereason or another, and you created it for a reason. And whether it'sthat thing you created or something that's stored in the brains of an engineer orsome other technical professional or salesperson, it kind of all comes down to whatare the things the customer cares about right what are the questions they're trying toget answered? What are the things they're trying to achieve? And you wantto get you want to find that knowledge inside your company and figure out howto harness that knowledge and be able to deliver it to the client. Isthat fair to say? It's fair, and I think you know I mentionedthis exhaustive list of documentary evidence, if you will, of things that helpus out. I don't mean to understate how important those people still are tothat. You know, I do want that mountain of files, but ifI don't have someone to talk to about those it, you know, forme it would be like trying to read a new language, I wouldn't knowwhat to do with it. So it's like the subject matter experts are reallyimportant and what's in their brains is really important. And even though technical documentsare my favorite thing to read, that's not going to matter to the toan audience that we're trying to reach, if I don't also know how tostitch those things together and put it in a in a context or in thelanguage that these people are going to respond...

...to. So it, like Isaid, it's all, all of it matters. So I need the articlesays, I need what's in your brain, I also want what's in their harddrives. If I could get both, that's perfect. It's a good answer. I mean from my observations, it seems that a lot of BEDBorganizations who maybe haven't done a lot of this, I. Haven't done alot of content creation. Maybe they've marketed more traditionally trade shows, print ads, maybe paper clicker things, but maybe they haven't really gotten into this ideaof harnessing their expertise and publishing expert content. You know, it's a lot ofthem seem to expect that the marketer, whether that's an internal person on theirstaff or an agency like gorilla, or a freelance writer, or marketI should say, or whatever it is, is the one who should be responsiblefor creating all the marketing content. And you know, although marketing mayown that task, you argue and your article that they can't really do iteffectively without tapping into the brains of the subject matter experts in some way.So you talk a little bit more for me about why, why you thinkit's so important for those technical professionals or deep subject matter experts to beat too, for the expectation to be there that they are going to play a rolein this content creation process. MMM, and forgive me of my cat enterestof the frame, but hey, this is the world we live in now. We got we got kids run and around in the background, we gotcats jumping into the picture, dogs bark in it's that's color to it right. Practically every meeting I'm in anymore entering the frame po you want to befamous, there he is. So why is it important that these people areavailable, that we have access to them? To answer that, I think yougot to look at the way niche be to be. Industrial Marketing isa thing all onto itself, even though it also is a lot like everyother kind of marketing. So let's presume that you agree and that our listenersagree that engaging an audience where they are demonstrating that you understand what their challengesare, that that is good marketing. Can we agree on that point?First of all, HMM. So, if we agree that that is stilltrue, regardless of what you're trying to mark up, whether you're trying tomarket cigarettes and iphones or trying to market the service lines for Metal, organicchemical vapor deposition tools, it's the same. But with that last one, howdo you reach the people interested in it's mcvd is the abbreviation there.How do you reach them? And it's not by telling them that they're goingto look cool in front of their friends. You got to tell them about,you know, like we said, the things that they care about.Well, they care about double containment and passivation and electro polishing and orbital weldquality inspection like. Those are all cares. Those are all things that they thatthey're interested in. Those address challenges that they face. You know,consumers care about looking cool in front of their friends. So it's it's thesame principle from a marketing perspective, is just a knowledge comes from different places. Right. Those are things that I mentioned that audience cares about. Well, why do they care? Because if they don't do it right, youput air inside a Silane line, it explodes. So it's different orders ofcaring, but we're, you know, we approach that caring. So Ineed to know those kinds of things and unless I go study, you know, systems engineering, I'm not going to know it. So I need thoseexperts to be involved. I need I need to have, you know,not free total access to them, but I need to know that they're availableto answer these questions and help me make heads or tails of, you know, some kind of topic that our marketing strategy indicated we need to to talkabout to get this audience of their's engaged.

So I'll stop there. Hopefully thatanswers the first part of that. Yeah, I think it's. Youknow, it's such a simple thing, right, LEA's, it's what youdid. The tight of your article says, I need what's in your brain.You're not the expert. They are. Your job is to harness it andfigure out how to pull that inside out. Right, yeah, yeah, and so you asked about ownership to and I agree. I think it'sessential that the marketing, whether it's interprinal or outsourced, owns that task kindof drives up. But it's it is in some ways it's a two waystreet still, and I'll give you an example of that, because we hadone fallen to our laps this time last week, or maybe last Tuesday.We've got a client who makes big of US industrial ovens. You put youknow, you name, it can go through these, the carpeting that goesinto the bottom of your car, you can do or these ovens that makethe phone that ends up being your Yoga Mat at home. And there wasevidently some meeting they had internal with a prospect we were not involved in.This prospect was discussing a oven design that they were interested in pursuing and ourclient, during that conversation, was proposing alternatives to that, saying what you'reproposing, you know in our experience, doesn't work. Let's let's do ita different way. And where we got involved in this, and it's notlike we helped in any way, they just clued us into this conversation.But the man who is talking about these alternative design features, let's call them, decided he could explain himself better in writing and a follow up email tohis prospect well, they forwarded that email to us too, and this wasa like one thousand three hundred word dissertation on why do point is a bettermeasurement inside an oven chamber compared to relative humidity, or why do you whydo you want to Orient Mass airflow in certain directions? Or how do youposition the sensors inside your own to determine air flow velocity and humidity and dopoint in all these things. So we wouldn't have known that, like that'sawesome, that's an awesome narrative we got, but we would never have come upwith that idea ourselves to talk about it. And it ended up beinga you know, we proposed a content piece based on this Guy's dissertation aboutdo point. No matter how much ownership we have over the process and overthe you know, the adventure of content ideation, there's just some things thata marketer is not going to get or isn't going to think about or waysthey that they don't think that a subject matter expert thinks every day. Andthis was an example where they said Hey, I think gorilla might, you know, see if they can, see if they can turn this into something. This his comment was tried out to fall asleep reading this. But ifyou manage to stay away, you know, see if you can do something withit. And I told our strategist I think this is golden, absolutelygolden. So yes, ownership, it's important and if you have a good, you know, a good marketing partner, you'll see what that ownership looks likeand those partners will make it easy for you. But that doesn't mean, you know, don't take an active role in it, because there's allkinds of great material that we've gotten from clients that came from them, thatthey that they started it, that they showed us. We wouldn't have knownto even ask. So I perfect tangible example. I mean it's and andit's straight from the customer, right. And there's a there's a quote.I'm going to butcher it here, but it's from Marcus Sheridan's book. Theyask you answer, which is is arguably my favorite, you know, marketingbook out there and it is goes something...

...like this. You know, everytime I get off a sales call, you know, I think what whatquestions did I answer on that call and have I answered that question in theform of content on my website yet? And you know, the example yougave from that particular manufacture is perfect example of that. It's they heard thisthat this question. They had written one thousand hundred word email. They probablywritten a similar email five other times on the same topic to a similar typeof customer. What if you just had that out there? What if youhad written that already? It was published on your website, it's optimized inthe search engines every time you get that question, as opposed to starting fromscratch and reinventing the wheel and typing an email that probably takes you an hourto write. By time you've done editing it, you say hey, youknow what, we covered this topic actually in an article we published last yearand I'm going to send that to you after we get off the call or, you know, just reply to the email with that. And what itshows is, well, first of all, the works done. You did thework already. You might, you know, may add a few notesonto it, you know, apply it to that particular situation. But italso shows, if you think about the about what impact that has on therecipients and it's Oh jeezy. These guys have thought about this before and they'vethought about it enough that they actually wrote a, you know, one fivehundred word article that breaks it down like these guys are our experts. Theyknow what they're talking about, and what a great confidence builder, right.HMM. Yeah, the challenge is, how do you know I'm not?This isn't a dig at Marcus answering. What about swimming pools? The challengethere is how do you how do you find a way to apply the specificstillman was talking about this, you know, alternative design to XYZ type of thermalprocess. How do you? How do you make that readable and digestibleand relevant to an audience greater than one? But it can be done, Ithink you know. That's partly, partly why we are involved, whythey hired US and why they send it to us, because they know something'sthere. Yep, they just got to get on the right way to wrapit up. Yeah, I think might take on that is it's all aboutpattern matching. If enough people have asked this question, and you know,if eighty percent of the response to that question can be covered in a pieceof content, you publish it, because it's enough to demonstrate to somebody thatyou get this topic and your piece of content is not meant to play thewhole role of salesperson, not at all, that the human to human conversation iswhere that happens. It needs to be enough to peak their interest,to demonstrate that, Oh, you've thought about this kind of thing before,you'd be the one to answer my questions about it, and now you canhave a much more qualified conversation with somebody around that topic. I think ifyou can accomplish that with a piece of content, it's done its job.I'd even estimate that you don't have to answer eighty percent of their questions.You could answer one of their questions and the rest of it is irrelevant.But if it's good and if it shows you know, and I wish ifwe had another half hour. I just read this emaility set. Yeah,and you you would see, I mean you wouldn't even have to be interestedin do point at all. HMM, and you would know. You youqualify these guys right away because they know their stuff absolutely. It's super powerful. We're going to take a thirty second breather here for a word from oursponsor, cadinus part solutions. Let's talk real quick about getting specified. Areyou a component manufacturer? Maybe you sell architectural products to parks or large facilities. Engineers and architects need models of your products to test fit in their designs. That's where cadinis comes in. They help you create a dynamic, shareablecad catalog you put on your website. Designers can preview the product from anyangle and download it in the format they...

...prefer. They get the data theyneed for their design and you get a fresh lead to add your marketing pipeline. To get one of your products turned into an online d model for free, use the code executive at part Solutionscom slash executive. So I want tojump over to another great article you wrote, this time back in two thousand andnineteen, and it we're going to get a little more tact goal herenow, but this one was titled How to Extract Expert Knowledge from your teamand turn it into incredible content. This is a little more of a howto and I'd love for you to be able to share some actionable, actionableadvice with listeners about how they can approach this sometimes really intimidating topic of contentcreation. And keep in mind here as you answer this question that, likeyou know, some, a lot of a lot of our clients have theluxury of working with with you or one of our super talented writers, right, but a lot of times manufacturers, they need to be able to createthis stuff internally, and maybe it's a marketing person internally, maybe they don'teven have a marketing, you know, person on staff. But how canthey go about, you know, I guess, first of all, generatingideas for content that would actually resonate with their audience. Yeah, so thefirst step that I noted in that piece is that they you need a frameworkaround the entire thing just from the beginning. You need to have strategy of somekind, because recognizing that you that you would benefit from a library ofcontent and then deciding, okay, I'm going to do some content, youleave a whole lot on the table that you could maximize if you if youthought about it a little more. So you got to have a framework thatcan get you to something. You've identified some some goal. Right. Oneof the ways, you know, we don't need to talk about. Howdo you do a strategy? I would say subscribe to this podcast and you'llprobably figure it out how to do a strategy. But but once you've gotthat, in my opinion, I think you got to get by in nextyou can't do this alone. Or if you, maybe you're a part ofa internal team or an external team. But regardless, you need buy infrom subject matter experts or anyone decision makers on your clients and or on theorganization's end. They need to know what you're doing. Ideally, they agreewith what you're doing and will help you. So that that's how you that's howyou build sources. You it's going to take time to do this programif you're going to do it the right way. I think so you needpeople who would be able to stand behind you and agree that you're what you'redoing is worthwhile and agree to help you if you need their help. So, you know, get by it. Definitely get by it now. Interms of actually generating ideas, the first thing on my list is, youmentioned already, do what Marcus Jardan does and just record every question he seesor answers and, you know, try to answer it and whether you answerit or find someone else, you can, you know, log that down.Another way. You can do it is just, you know, brainstorminghere. Have a have a conversation with a really loyal customer or even somebodyin your industry who's not a customer but someone that you know you can talkto and just get delay of the land. Another one could be, you know, find out where your audience hangs out online. Find groups, joingroups, and back in my reporting days that's what we would do. Likeif there was something you wanted to find out, there was a certain groupof people who might have had your answers, join their group and just say hey, I'm I'm here, I'm who I am, this is why I'mhere. Anyone want to help? You know, twenty one century version oflike following the bars, the cops to the bar after their shift downs and, you know, building sources that way.

Another thing you might try is myseeing kind of silly, but select a couple people in your organization andbuy and pizza twice a year and say, you know, sit with me foran hour, have some free pizza, answer my questions. You'd be surprisedat what you can learn just by getting someone in a room. Andwe've done this before with one of our clients. We've bribed their entire salesteam with the flren't and you know, we learned so much more about howhow that business works and it had to have come from those, those salesteam members, because that was like a missing link that we had, thatwe needed. So those are you know, how do you, if I wasgoing to wrap a bow around us, how do you generate content ideas?Is Try to be aware of all of the people who would be sharingthose ideas and then making roads with them. Those are all really great ideas.So many different ways to get to it. It's that the insights arethere, like the the ideas are. They're right there. They're kind ofat your fingertips. You kind of just have to put yourself out there andtalk to the right people. They're going to come up and people like totalk about what they do. It you know, like I said, thecombination of free pizza and hey, tell me about your job, like youwill get people talking and once they're comfortable, because they don't always start out beingcomfortable and they're like why the hell are you asking me this stuff?But once they're comfortable they'll go on and on and on, and that's paidher. It's just as good as any RFP or any lawsuit that I findonline. Yeah, well, we've talked here about why content matters. We'vetalked about why, you know, why you need to get into the brainsof the experts. We've talked about how to generate ideas. The last thingI really want to cover here is can you, can you sort of openup your process a little bit, like how, once somebody has gotten thatfar, what is the creation process actually look like? And from your Perspui, you're a writer, like there's video content, there's audio content, there'sa lot of ways to do content, and it's not that one is betterthan the next. But from your perspective as a writer, how can youstart making some of the stuff, turning it into something to angeble? Sohow do you make it? You got to read you, because what youcreate has to come from a position of authority, and that's true whatever you'remarketing. But if you're going to market and industrial be to be, likeI said before, you've got those mcvd service lines, how you need tocome from a position of authority. And let me tell you, the peoplewho you are, you know, trying to reach our authorities. So researchis absolutely paramount. Here. You need to understand the context of a ofa topic. You need to know what the vocabulary words were. You needto know what all the vocab words that make up a vocab word mean.You need to know if you're talking about a process, well, what comesbefore the process? What comes after the process? What does this process makewhy does it make it this way? Go, go watch youtube videos,see how something is done. Google image search something. What does this looklike? What are the dissenting opinions? What are the commonly held opinions ofa thing? You know, the way I characterize it is researching around thetopic. Right, you need to know more than what you're going to say. A lot of this stuff never cease the light of day, but youneed to do your research and you will thank yourself for it later and youraudience will probably thank you for it too. And just I need to get ona soapbox about research, because in grade school they were telling us likedon't use Wikipedia, wikipedia is bad. You actually had wikipedia and grades going. Like me, I had, like you know, encyclopedia Britannica, booksand stuff. Maybe aside from Encyclopedia Britannica,...

I don't. I can't think ofan online resource that gives more editorial scrutinate over its content than wikipedia.You know, maybe, with the exception of an encyclopedia like Britannica or likeThe New York Times or something, if you're going to like and they citetheir sources to so anyone who thinks opinion time here. Anyone who thinks wikipediais bad, I disagree. It is very good and can lead you toother really great places. Now what comes next, because I it is aprocess and this is something you know. You can download this, we've gotthis on our website. But one of the first things you need to dois devote the proper time to this. If you need to block off halfa day or block off a day or block off a week. You know, doing this the right way, in my opinion, is not something youcan hurry through. Give it its time. I think you should. Then youknow, as you consider the idea that you're about to create the youknow, create content around, how does that align with the strategy we talkedabout making? You know, is it going to work? If it does, okay, go ahead. If it doesn't, maybe rethink it. Obviously, interviewing could be a big part of the content if you need to talkto an expert, and so you're in any questions to ask this person.So sit down and make your list of questions. Were to the wise.Do not try to edit this question list right now. Just every question thatcomes to mind. Put it down. You will notice where I have noticed, as you write these questions, the need for more research is going tocome up. So it's not like you do forty minutes of reading and thenyou're reading is done and you move on to whatever is next. You'll needto read some more probably. So do more try to answer the questions thatyou've post if you can answer a question for yourself that you don't need toask, great you saved your subject some time. Or what happens more oftenin my case anyway, is when I try to answer my own question,I plan a different way to ask the question or a more detailed way toask it or a more relevant way. You know, within the context ofthe audience, we're trying to reach a way to ask that question. Soit's like a feedback loop. Interview Questions, research, interview questions, research,keep just keep going. Then at the end of the process go aheadand give it a look at at your questions. See if something doesn't makesense, see if you're being repetitive. A very important part of you know, editing quote marks, editing a question list, is sharing those with thesubject matter. Let this person see it. They they know the about this stuffmore than you do. Right, they are the expert. Not onlyare they going to know if you're if you're on the right track or not, but they can put you on the right track. Hey, I noticedthis question. You're asking about x y Z. Well, actually, lmnopis the more relevant direction to go down. Ask It this way, because that'sthat's relevant, and then you know, it unfolds from there. They theycan set you on the right track or they can tell you you're totallywrong. Here's some more reading to do. Go do some more reading. AndI don't know if you know whether this needs to be said or not, but I've had someone asked in a presentation, and you might remember this, Joe, we did this presentation together, but ask whether it's okay to sentinterview questions in advance of a call in marketing. Yeah, absolutely,it's. You know, if you're in a newsroom, no, never dothat. But in this case, not only is it? Is it okay? I think it should be. The norm is to get those in frontof your subject matter expert in advance of the call. Well, what aboutwhen you're doing the interview? Maybe this...

...is the part that makes people nervous. I mean it makes me nervous and I do it every day. Here'ssome you know, interview tips that will it's not going to guarantee you're goingto get everything you need, but it'll put you in position for it.If you're not getting what you need, just ask the question again or rephrasethe question, put it in a different way. Push gently, but pushyour interviewee. These people, like I said a moment ago, they mightbe uncomfortable, they might not have ever done this before, they might bereluctant, they might think they don't want to they don't want to say somethingtoo complex. So part of part of our job as interviewers is to putthem at ease and say, like, you know, say it the wayyou need to say it, and I will stop you if this is toocomplicated or if I need you to explain it, I'll tell you that youneed to explain it. But you know, don't we don't want them to censorthemselves. Another another thing I've found useful is to be up front withthese folks about what I what I don't know. I think it's tempting foran interviewer to censor themselves. They're afraid to look stupid in front of someonewho's smarter than them. Well, in this world, everybody, if I'mtalking about me, everybody is smarter than me. So, like, Idon't know a lot of stuff. It's my job not to know but tofind out. So don't answer yourself, ask rookie questions if you have to, ask rookie questions, but get the information that you need. One tacticI find that helps there is to post theoreticals or make assumptions with with yourinterview subject, even when, even if you think or you know you mightbe way off on that, if you want someone to explain a topic ina way that matters are, in a way that makes sense to your audience, it's almost like role playing. You know, say I am someone inyour audience and this is a problem I'm having or this is a process Imight need to implement and and just start throwing variables out there. What wouldhappen if I did this? What would happen if I did that? Youknow, just kind of. It's almost like exploratory surgery, if you will. But assumptions, even wrong ones, are going to end up solidifying yourunderstanding of a topic, which is besides the point. The point is it'llmake you able to translate that topic in a way that, if you onlygot just the textbook definition of a thing, you know wouldn't have been as goodat doing another. Another consideration, I guess, is to not treatyour interview document like a stone tablet. If you need to go off script, chase something down, you know you should. You should go for it. I we talked about this all the time, the other writers and eyes. If we had a dollar for every time we had to do that andskip questions or depart the the the question list or just delete the entire documentall together, we could retire. You know, it's it happens, andI think interviewers shouldn't feel chained, even though the prep work is important.Don't feel chained to it because you know the conversation is going to go whereit's going to go. Don't don't limit yourself to just the questions you wereasking and you know what you do after that? Well, you're as gracemy colleague would says. You write the day thing and I don't really wantto get into the how do you write a blog post? But an importantaspect of your relationship with a subject matter expert here is make sure they cansee it. Give them you let them review it, and I think thisis I can't think of a client we've had where we did not have asubject matter expert available to do these edits.

And you know, tell it tous. Blunt track changes. No, you're wrong. Here's what's right.We need them because it's almost like, you know, why do we talkto sales people? Because they speak the language right. These people aregoing to know not only factually what needs to be in a piece or whereyou've aired and where to put you back on track, but then they canthey can say it the way that it needs to be said in that industry. It all through junior high, right. They were telling US Argon is bad. Well, once you graduated and enjoin a BE TO BE Industrial MarketingAgency, jargon is good and you're going to need those people to tell youwhat that is. So and there's, you know, there's all kinds ofother ways you can branch off of that in terms of getting feedback from somebody, and I would encourage folks to read grace wrote a piece barely recently abouthow to give that feedback to a writing partner. But that, I thinkyou know, if this conversation is a little galaxy that's part of the wideruniverse that I think almost as a natural extension of the rest of this process. That's great. Well, toby, you covered a ton here, somany valuable insights. Any any parting words before we wrap this up? Don'tguess. If I had to etch it, etch it onto my tombstone. Toby'snumber one rule of industrial be TOB copywriting. It's don't guess. Somake friends with your engineers bribe them with pizza. Love it. Wow thatthere's the quote of the episode right there. Make friends with your engineers and bribethem with pizza. We will tell you you and I, among many, as are others that gorilla, have had to countless conversations and debates aboutthese topics we covered today, and I love that we got to do itpublicly this time because make your experiences over the last four years or so inthe industrial sector of revealed a lot about what works and what doesn't and howto do content effectively. So thanks it done for doing this with me today. Glad to do it. Thank you. Can You? Can you tell listenersyou know how they can connect with you if they want to learn more? Sure, I'm never on Linkedin, so that's fair. I might replylike four weeks if after. That's me, but really, if you want toemail me, it's real easy. It's toby at gorilla seventy sixcom asTLB. Why at Gorilla Seventy Sixcom and I will answer that. I'll probablyanswer in thirty seconds, but perfect. That's simple enough. Well, beforewe wrap it up, I want to say a big thank you to oursponsor, codeenis, part solutions, for helping make this show possible. Wellagain, thanks for don't join in, toby, and for the rest ofyou, I hope to catch you on the next episode of the Manufacturing Executive. You've been listening to the manufacturing executive podcast. To ensure that you nevermiss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. Ifyou'd like to learn more about industrial marketing and sales strategy, you'll find anever expanding collection of articles, videos, guides and tools specifically for BTB manufacturers. At Gorilla, seventy sixcom learn thank you so much for listening. Untilnext time.

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