The Manufacturing Executive
The Manufacturing Executive

Episode · 2 years ago

I Need What's In Your Brain: Extracting Expert Knowledge for Content Marketing w/ Toby Wall


What happens when your competitors are talking about themselves but you are producing resourceful content? You win! 

So how can you write helpful technical content for manufacturers? First, it needs to come from the brains of subject matter experts. Second, you need to extract that knowledge from their brains and use their insights to fuel your marketing strategy. 

Toby Wall, thinker and senior writer at Gorilla76, joined this episode of the podcast to discuss how to create great content in the manufacturing space.

Toby and I talk about:

  • Where should content expertise originate?
  • Why should subject matter experts expect to play a role in content creation?
  • How do you extract expert knowledge and turn it into credible content?

Resources we talked about:

To ensure that you never miss an episode of The Manufacturing Show, subscribe on Apple Podcasts, or Spotify, or here.

Even though technical documents are my favorite thing to read, that's not going to matter to the to an audience that we're trying to reach, if I don't also know how to stitch those things together. Welcome to the manufacturing executive podcast, where we explore the strategies and experiences that are driving midsize manufacturers forward. Here you'll discover new insights from passionate manufacturing leaders who have compelling stories to share about their successes and struggles, and you'll learn from B tob sales and marketing experts about how to apply actionable business development strategies inside your business. Let's get into the show. Welcome to another episode of the Manufacturing Executive podcast. This show is being brought to you by our sponsor, codinas part solutions. I'm Joe Sullivan, your host and a cofounder of the Industrial Marketing Agency gorilla seventy six so when we launched this podcast a few months ago, I wanted to sprinkle in, sprinkle in a solo cast every four episodes or so where, instead of me interviewing someone else, I'd share some of my own insights on sales and marketing topics and specific to the industrial sector. But I'm one person and I coodin co own an agency of nineteen who collectively possess deep expertise and of variety of things industrial marketing related. So instead of me talking your ear off today, I'm going to put the spotlight on our senior copywriter, Toby Wall, and we're going to have a conversation about content marketing. More specifically, we're going to dive into a couple things. First, why effective content for manufacturing organizations really needs to come from the brains of your true subject matter experts and, second, how you can go about extracting the knowledge from the brains of those deep experts inside your company and use those insights to fuel your marketing strategy. I'm excited about this conversation because content marketing is a personal passion of mine and it's such an important topic for be tob manufacturers. When your competitors are talking all about themselves, but you, on the other hand, are producing resourceful content that helps and guides and earns the trust and attention of the people you're trying to reach, you're going to win. So on that note, let me take a moment to introduce toby wall, senior writer. Toby Wall joined our agency, Grilla, seventy six, almost four years ago. In his tenure he's developed special expertise in areas including industrial thermal processing, automation technology, industrial facility construction and commodity dairy product trading. In addition to producing written work, toby produces a niche podcast for one of our clients that's reached all but one US state sixty eight countries around the world. Prior to joining the company, Toby was a newspaper reporter in Illinois. You covered breaking news and state and local government. Toby, welcome to the show. Thanks, Joe. Good to be here. Well, let's get right into it. So, Toby, you wrote an article in our learning center that immediately became one of my favorites earlier this year. Use It all the time. I send it to clients and prospects because I think it's just it really hammers home a really important point. But the piece was about how to create effective content and it's titled I need what's in your brain. Why? We insist on interviewing subject matter experts and from your experience as a writer working specifically with manufacturers, who in those organizations have you found? ARE THOSE EXPERTS? So the engineers and they sales engineers, sales people. I'm just kind of curious what your take is on where that expertise needs to come from. Yeah, generically engineer is usually where comes from, but there's all kinds of engineers, right. So project engineers, facility engineers, design engineers, corporate engineers, electrical engineers, production engineers. That think of an engineer of any kind,...

...we have probably spoken with with that persona. But and these there's other ones too. It's not just engineers, you know, sales folks are always very valuable to us. They're the people talking to an audience pretty much every day. We found them to be a great conduit between us and you know us on the marketing side and then whatever our intended goal is. Other examples project managers, supervisors or superintendents, and there I'm you know, construction projects, or contractors or subcontractors. That persona is really helpful to us when we can get a hold of them. Draftsmen, estimators, auditors, really any any boring sounding. I hate to say it that way, but anymore founding job title in a manufacturing organization is usually where we hit paid or now it's not just about people there's, you know, physical things that I would consider subject matter experts to write that. This is the the paper trail of, you know, all of these people. So we've had great success looking at Urfis and URFP's and ourfqs. We like to see estimates. Sometimes I ask for invoices. Drawings, CAD models, renderings, specs are great, you know, not only just from background technical information, but something we can publish. You know, you look at a rendering or look at a cad drawing and it's way better most of the time in my opinion. Then a paragraph. But then we you know, sales decks, training decks, trade show materials, compliance documents, audit reports, statutory reports you got to file with the EPA, let's say in certain industries, and then even lawsuits, like if most. Is that what you can learn about a company or its business by what they're getting sued over? Obviously that's not something our clients usually volunteer. We crack that down on our own and it and I'm not out there snooping for lawsuits, but it's always it's useful. It's all useful. Yeah, that's it's an interesting way to answer that question and because I hadn't really thought about it from the perspective of you know, I was thinking about people who are the brains we need to tap into. But in addition to that, it's you know, there are so many resources and things that you know you've already created inside your company for one reason or another, and you created it for a reason. And whether it's that thing you created or something that's stored in the brains of an engineer or some other technical professional or salesperson, it kind of all comes down to what are the things the customer cares about right what are the questions they're trying to get answered? What are the things they're trying to achieve? And you want to get you want to find that knowledge inside your company and figure out how to harness that knowledge and be able to deliver it to the client. Is that fair to say? It's fair, and I think you know I mentioned this exhaustive list of documentary evidence, if you will, of things that help us out. I don't mean to understate how important those people still are to that. You know, I do want that mountain of files, but if I don't have someone to talk to about those it, you know, for me it would be like trying to read a new language, I wouldn't know what to do with it. So it's like the subject matter experts are really important and what's in their brains is really important. And even though technical documents are my favorite thing to read, that's not going to matter to the to an audience that we're trying to reach, if I don't also know how to stitch those things together and put it in a in a context or in the language that these people are going to respond... So it, like I said, it's all, all of it matters. So I need the article says, I need what's in your brain, I also want what's in their hard drives. If I could get both, that's perfect. It's a good answer. I mean from my observations, it seems that a lot of BEDB organizations who maybe haven't done a lot of this, I. Haven't done a lot of content creation. Maybe they've marketed more traditionally trade shows, print ads, maybe paper clicker things, but maybe they haven't really gotten into this idea of harnessing their expertise and publishing expert content. You know, it's a lot of them seem to expect that the marketer, whether that's an internal person on their staff or an agency like gorilla, or a freelance writer, or market I should say, or whatever it is, is the one who should be responsible for creating all the marketing content. And you know, although marketing may own that task, you argue and your article that they can't really do it effectively without tapping into the brains of the subject matter experts in some way. So you talk a little bit more for me about why, why you think it's so important for those technical professionals or deep subject matter experts to beat too, for the expectation to be there that they are going to play a role in this content creation process. MMM, and forgive me of my cat enterest of the frame, but hey, this is the world we live in now. We got we got kids run and around in the background, we got cats jumping into the picture, dogs bark in it's that's color to it right. Practically every meeting I'm in anymore entering the frame po you want to be famous, there he is. So why is it important that these people are available, that we have access to them? To answer that, I think you got to look at the way niche be to be. Industrial Marketing is a thing all onto itself, even though it also is a lot like every other kind of marketing. So let's presume that you agree and that our listeners agree that engaging an audience where they are demonstrating that you understand what their challenges are, that that is good marketing. Can we agree on that point? First of all, HMM. So, if we agree that that is still true, regardless of what you're trying to mark up, whether you're trying to market cigarettes and iphones or trying to market the service lines for Metal, organic chemical vapor deposition tools, it's the same. But with that last one, how do you reach the people interested in it's mcvd is the abbreviation there. How do you reach them? And it's not by telling them that they're going to look cool in front of their friends. You got to tell them about, you know, like we said, the things that they care about. Well, they care about double containment and passivation and electro polishing and orbital weld quality inspection like. Those are all cares. Those are all things that they that they're interested in. Those address challenges that they face. You know, consumers care about looking cool in front of their friends. So it's it's the same principle from a marketing perspective, is just a knowledge comes from different places. Right. Those are things that I mentioned that audience cares about. Well, why do they care? Because if they don't do it right, you put air inside a Silane line, it explodes. So it's different orders of caring, but we're, you know, we approach that caring. So I need to know those kinds of things and unless I go study, you know, systems engineering, I'm not going to know it. So I need those experts to be involved. I need I need to have, you know, not free total access to them, but I need to know that they're available to answer these questions and help me make heads or tails of, you know, some kind of topic that our marketing strategy indicated we need to to talk about to get this audience of their's engaged.

So I'll stop there. Hopefully that answers the first part of that. Yeah, I think it's. You know, it's such a simple thing, right, LEA's, it's what you did. The tight of your article says, I need what's in your brain. You're not the expert. They are. Your job is to harness it and figure out how to pull that inside out. Right, yeah, yeah, and so you asked about ownership to and I agree. I think it's essential that the marketing, whether it's interprinal or outsourced, owns that task kind of drives up. But it's it is in some ways it's a two way street still, and I'll give you an example of that, because we had one fallen to our laps this time last week, or maybe last Tuesday. We've got a client who makes big of US industrial ovens. You put you know, you name, it can go through these, the carpeting that goes into the bottom of your car, you can do or these ovens that make the phone that ends up being your Yoga Mat at home. And there was evidently some meeting they had internal with a prospect we were not involved in. This prospect was discussing a oven design that they were interested in pursuing and our client, during that conversation, was proposing alternatives to that, saying what you're proposing, you know in our experience, doesn't work. Let's let's do it a different way. And where we got involved in this, and it's not like we helped in any way, they just clued us into this conversation. But the man who is talking about these alternative design features, let's call them, decided he could explain himself better in writing and a follow up email to his prospect well, they forwarded that email to us too, and this was a like one thousand three hundred word dissertation on why do point is a better measurement inside an oven chamber compared to relative humidity, or why do you why do you want to Orient Mass airflow in certain directions? Or how do you position the sensors inside your own to determine air flow velocity and humidity and do point in all these things. So we wouldn't have known that, like that's awesome, that's an awesome narrative we got, but we would never have come up with that idea ourselves to talk about it. And it ended up being a you know, we proposed a content piece based on this Guy's dissertation about do point. No matter how much ownership we have over the process and over the you know, the adventure of content ideation, there's just some things that a marketer is not going to get or isn't going to think about or ways they that they don't think that a subject matter expert thinks every day. And this was an example where they said Hey, I think gorilla might, you know, see if they can, see if they can turn this into something. This his comment was tried out to fall asleep reading this. But if you manage to stay away, you know, see if you can do something with it. And I told our strategist I think this is golden, absolutely golden. So yes, ownership, it's important and if you have a good, you know, a good marketing partner, you'll see what that ownership looks like and those partners will make it easy for you. But that doesn't mean, you know, don't take an active role in it, because there's all kinds of great material that we've gotten from clients that came from them, that they that they started it, that they showed us. We wouldn't have known to even ask. So I perfect tangible example. I mean it's and and it's straight from the customer, right. And there's a there's a quote. I'm going to butcher it here, but it's from Marcus Sheridan's book. They ask you answer, which is is arguably my favorite, you know, marketing book out there and it is goes something... this. You know, every time I get off a sales call, you know, I think what what questions did I answer on that call and have I answered that question in the form of content on my website yet? And you know, the example you gave from that particular manufacture is perfect example of that. It's they heard this that this question. They had written one thousand hundred word email. They probably written a similar email five other times on the same topic to a similar type of customer. What if you just had that out there? What if you had written that already? It was published on your website, it's optimized in the search engines every time you get that question, as opposed to starting from scratch and reinventing the wheel and typing an email that probably takes you an hour to write. By time you've done editing it, you say hey, you know what, we covered this topic actually in an article we published last year and I'm going to send that to you after we get off the call or, you know, just reply to the email with that. And what it shows is, well, first of all, the works done. You did the work already. You might, you know, may add a few notes onto it, you know, apply it to that particular situation. But it also shows, if you think about the about what impact that has on the recipients and it's Oh jeezy. These guys have thought about this before and they've thought about it enough that they actually wrote a, you know, one five hundred word article that breaks it down like these guys are our experts. They know what they're talking about, and what a great confidence builder, right. HMM. Yeah, the challenge is, how do you know I'm not? This isn't a dig at Marcus answering. What about swimming pools? The challenge there is how do you how do you find a way to apply the specific stillman was talking about this, you know, alternative design to XYZ type of thermal process. How do you? How do you make that readable and digestible and relevant to an audience greater than one? But it can be done, I think you know. That's partly, partly why we are involved, why they hired US and why they send it to us, because they know something's there. Yep, they just got to get on the right way to wrap it up. Yeah, I think might take on that is it's all about pattern matching. If enough people have asked this question, and you know, if eighty percent of the response to that question can be covered in a piece of content, you publish it, because it's enough to demonstrate to somebody that you get this topic and your piece of content is not meant to play the whole role of salesperson, not at all, that the human to human conversation is where that happens. It needs to be enough to peak their interest, to demonstrate that, Oh, you've thought about this kind of thing before, you'd be the one to answer my questions about it, and now you can have a much more qualified conversation with somebody around that topic. I think if you can accomplish that with a piece of content, it's done its job. I'd even estimate that you don't have to answer eighty percent of their questions. You could answer one of their questions and the rest of it is irrelevant. But if it's good and if it shows you know, and I wish if we had another half hour. I just read this emaility set. Yeah, and you you would see, I mean you wouldn't even have to be interested in do point at all. HMM, and you would know. You you qualify these guys right away because they know their stuff absolutely. It's super powerful. We're going to take a thirty second breather here for a word from our sponsor, cadinus part solutions. Let's talk real quick about getting specified. 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...prefer. They get the data they need for their design and you get a fresh lead to add your marketing pipeline. To get one of your products turned into an online d model for free, use the code executive at part Solutionscom slash executive. So I want to jump over to another great article you wrote, this time back in two thousand and nineteen, and it we're going to get a little more tact goal here now, but this one was titled How to Extract Expert Knowledge from your team and turn it into incredible content. This is a little more of a how to and I'd love for you to be able to share some actionable, actionable advice with listeners about how they can approach this sometimes really intimidating topic of content creation. And keep in mind here as you answer this question that, like you know, some, a lot of a lot of our clients have the luxury of working with with you or one of our super talented writers, right, but a lot of times manufacturers, they need to be able to create this stuff internally, and maybe it's a marketing person internally, maybe they don't even have a marketing, you know, person on staff. But how can they go about, you know, I guess, first of all, generating ideas for content that would actually resonate with their audience. Yeah, so the first step that I noted in that piece is that they you need a framework around the entire thing just from the beginning. You need to have strategy of some kind, because recognizing that you that you would benefit from a library of content and then deciding, okay, I'm going to do some content, you leave a whole lot on the table that you could maximize if you if you thought about it a little more. So you got to have a framework that can get you to something. You've identified some some goal. Right. One of the ways, you know, we don't need to talk about. How do you do a strategy? I would say subscribe to this podcast and you'll probably figure it out how to do a strategy. But but once you've got that, in my opinion, I think you got to get by in next you can't do this alone. Or if you, maybe you're a part of a internal team or an external team. But regardless, you need buy in from subject matter experts or anyone decision makers on your clients and or on the organization's end. They need to know what you're doing. Ideally, they agree with what you're doing and will help you. So that that's how you that's how you build sources. You it's going to take time to do this program if you're going to do it the right way. I think so you need people who would be able to stand behind you and agree that you're what you're doing is worthwhile and agree to help you if you need their help. So, you know, get by it. Definitely get by it now. In terms of actually generating ideas, the first thing on my list is, you mentioned already, do what Marcus Jardan does and just record every question he sees or answers and, you know, try to answer it and whether you answer it or find someone else, you can, you know, log that down. Another way. You can do it is just, you know, brainstorming here. Have a have a conversation with a really loyal customer or even somebody in your industry who's not a customer but someone that you know you can talk to and just get delay of the land. Another one could be, you know, find out where your audience hangs out online. Find groups, join groups, and back in my reporting days that's what we would do. Like if there was something you wanted to find out, there was a certain group of people who might have had your answers, join their group and just say hey, I'm I'm here, I'm who I am, this is why I'm here. Anyone want to help? You know, twenty one century version of like following the bars, the cops to the bar after their shift downs and, you know, building sources that way.

Another thing you might try is my seeing kind of silly, but select a couple people in your organization and buy and pizza twice a year and say, you know, sit with me for an hour, have some free pizza, answer my questions. You'd be surprised at what you can learn just by getting someone in a room. And we've done this before with one of our clients. We've bribed their entire sales team with the flren't and you know, we learned so much more about how how that business works and it had to have come from those, those sales team members, because that was like a missing link that we had, that we needed. So those are you know, how do you, if I was going to wrap a bow around us, how do you generate content ideas? Is Try to be aware of all of the people who would be sharing those ideas and then making roads with them. Those are all really great ideas. So many different ways to get to it. It's that the insights are there, like the the ideas are. They're right there. They're kind of at your fingertips. You kind of just have to put yourself out there and talk to the right people. They're going to come up and people like to talk about what they do. It you know, like I said, the combination of free pizza and hey, tell me about your job, like you will get people talking and once they're comfortable, because they don't always start out being comfortable and they're like why the hell are you asking me this stuff? But once they're comfortable they'll go on and on and on, and that's paid her. It's just as good as any RFP or any lawsuit that I find online. Yeah, well, we've talked here about why content matters. We've talked about why, you know, why you need to get into the brains of the experts. We've talked about how to generate ideas. The last thing I really want to cover here is can you, can you sort of open up your process a little bit, like how, once somebody has gotten that far, what is the creation process actually look like? And from your Perspui, you're a writer, like there's video content, there's audio content, there's a lot of ways to do content, and it's not that one is better than the next. But from your perspective as a writer, how can you start making some of the stuff, turning it into something to angeble? So how do you make it? You got to read you, because what you create has to come from a position of authority, and that's true whatever you're marketing. But if you're going to market and industrial be to be, like I said before, you've got those mcvd service lines, how you need to come from a position of authority. And let me tell you, the people who you are, you know, trying to reach our authorities. So research is absolutely paramount. Here. You need to understand the context of a of a topic. You need to know what the vocabulary words were. You need to know what all the vocab words that make up a vocab word mean. You need to know if you're talking about a process, well, what comes before the process? What comes after the process? What does this process make why does it make it this way? Go, go watch youtube videos, see how something is done. Google image search something. What does this look like? What are the dissenting opinions? What are the commonly held opinions of a thing? You know, the way I characterize it is researching around the topic. Right, you need to know more than what you're going to say. A lot of this stuff never cease the light of day, but you need to do your research and you will thank yourself for it later and your audience will probably thank you for it too. And just I need to get on a soapbox about research, because in grade school they were telling us like don't use Wikipedia, wikipedia is bad. You actually had wikipedia and grades going. Like me, I had, like you know, encyclopedia Britannica, books and stuff. Maybe aside from Encyclopedia Britannica,...

I don't. I can't think of an online resource that gives more editorial scrutinate over its content than wikipedia. You know, maybe, with the exception of an encyclopedia like Britannica or like The New York Times or something, if you're going to like and they cite their sources to so anyone who thinks opinion time here. Anyone who thinks wikipedia is bad, I disagree. It is very good and can lead you to other really great places. Now what comes next, because I it is a process and this is something you know. You can download this, we've got this on our website. But one of the first things you need to do is devote the proper time to this. If you need to block off half a day or block off a day or block off a week. You know, doing this the right way, in my opinion, is not something you can hurry through. Give it its time. I think you should. Then you know, as you consider the idea that you're about to create the you know, create content around, how does that align with the strategy we talked about making? You know, is it going to work? If it does, okay, go ahead. If it doesn't, maybe rethink it. Obviously, interviewing could be a big part of the content if you need to talk to an expert, and so you're in any questions to ask this person. So sit down and make your list of questions. Were to the wise. Do not try to edit this question list right now. Just every question that comes to mind. Put it down. You will notice where I have noticed, as you write these questions, the need for more research is going to come up. So it's not like you do forty minutes of reading and then you're reading is done and you move on to whatever is next. You'll need to read some more probably. So do more try to answer the questions that you've post if you can answer a question for yourself that you don't need to ask, great you saved your subject some time. Or what happens more often in my case anyway, is when I try to answer my own question, I plan a different way to ask the question or a more detailed way to ask it or a more relevant way. You know, within the context of the audience, we're trying to reach a way to ask that question. So it's like a feedback loop. Interview Questions, research, interview questions, research, keep just keep going. Then at the end of the process go ahead and give it a look at at your questions. See if something doesn't make sense, see if you're being repetitive. A very important part of you know, editing quote marks, editing a question list, is sharing those with the subject matter. Let this person see it. They they know the about this stuff more than you do. Right, they are the expert. Not only are they going to know if you're if you're on the right track or not, but they can put you on the right track. Hey, I noticed this question. You're asking about x y Z. Well, actually, lmnop is the more relevant direction to go down. Ask It this way, because that's that's relevant, and then you know, it unfolds from there. They they can set you on the right track or they can tell you you're totally wrong. Here's some more reading to do. Go do some more reading. And I don't know if you know whether this needs to be said or not, but I've had someone asked in a presentation, and you might remember this, Joe, we did this presentation together, but ask whether it's okay to sent interview questions in advance of a call in marketing. Yeah, absolutely, it's. You know, if you're in a newsroom, no, never do that. But in this case, not only is it? Is it okay? I think it should be. The norm is to get those in front of your subject matter expert in advance of the call. Well, what about when you're doing the interview? Maybe this... the part that makes people nervous. I mean it makes me nervous and I do it every day. Here's some you know, interview tips that will it's not going to guarantee you're going to get everything you need, but it'll put you in position for it. If you're not getting what you need, just ask the question again or rephrase the question, put it in a different way. Push gently, but push your interviewee. These people, like I said a moment ago, they might be uncomfortable, they might not have ever done this before, they might be reluctant, they might think they don't want to they don't want to say something too complex. So part of part of our job as interviewers is to put them at ease and say, like, you know, say it the way you need to say it, and I will stop you if this is too complicated or if I need you to explain it, I'll tell you that you need to explain it. But you know, don't we don't want them to censor themselves. Another another thing I've found useful is to be up front with these folks about what I what I don't know. I think it's tempting for an interviewer to censor themselves. They're afraid to look stupid in front of someone who's smarter than them. Well, in this world, everybody, if I'm talking about me, everybody is smarter than me. So, like, I don't know a lot of stuff. It's my job not to know but to find out. So don't answer yourself, ask rookie questions if you have to, ask rookie questions, but get the information that you need. One tactic I find that helps there is to post theoreticals or make assumptions with with your interview subject, even when, even if you think or you know you might be way off on that, if you want someone to explain a topic in a way that matters are, in a way that makes sense to your audience, it's almost like role playing. You know, say I am someone in your audience and this is a problem I'm having or this is a process I might need to implement and and just start throwing variables out there. What would happen if I did this? What would happen if I did that? You know, just kind of. It's almost like exploratory surgery, if you will. But assumptions, even wrong ones, are going to end up solidifying your understanding of a topic, which is besides the point. The point is it'll make you able to translate that topic in a way that, if you only got just the textbook definition of a thing, you know wouldn't have been as good at doing another. Another consideration, I guess, is to not treat your interview document like a stone tablet. If you need to go off script, chase something down, you know you should. You should go for it. I we talked about this all the time, the other writers and eyes. If we had a dollar for every time we had to do that and skip questions or depart the the the question list or just delete the entire document all together, we could retire. You know, it's it happens, and I think interviewers shouldn't feel chained, even though the prep work is important. Don't feel chained to it because you know the conversation is going to go where it's going to go. Don't don't limit yourself to just the questions you were asking and you know what you do after that? Well, you're as grace my colleague would says. You write the day thing and I don't really want to get into the how do you write a blog post? But an important aspect of your relationship with a subject matter expert here is make sure they can see it. Give them you let them review it, and I think this is I can't think of a client we've had where we did not have a subject matter expert available to do these edits.

And you know, tell it to us. Blunt track changes. No, you're wrong. Here's what's right. We need them because it's almost like, you know, why do we talk to sales people? Because they speak the language right. These people are going to know not only factually what needs to be in a piece or where you've aired and where to put you back on track, but then they can they can say it the way that it needs to be said in that industry. It all through junior high, right. They were telling US Argon is bad. Well, once you graduated and enjoin a BE TO BE Industrial Marketing Agency, jargon is good and you're going to need those people to tell you what that is. So and there's, you know, there's all kinds of other ways you can branch off of that in terms of getting feedback from somebody, and I would encourage folks to read grace wrote a piece barely recently about how to give that feedback to a writing partner. But that, I think you know, if this conversation is a little galaxy that's part of the wider universe that I think almost as a natural extension of the rest of this process. That's great. Well, toby, you covered a ton here, so many valuable insights. Any any parting words before we wrap this up? Don't guess. If I had to etch it, etch it onto my tombstone. Toby's number one rule of industrial be TOB copywriting. It's don't guess. So make friends with your engineers bribe them with pizza. Love it. Wow that there's the quote of the episode right there. Make friends with your engineers and bribe them with pizza. We will tell you you and I, among many, as are others that gorilla, have had to countless conversations and debates about these topics we covered today, and I love that we got to do it publicly this time because make your experiences over the last four years or so in the industrial sector of revealed a lot about what works and what doesn't and how to do content effectively. So thanks it done for doing this with me today. Glad to do it. Thank you. Can You? Can you tell listeners you know how they can connect with you if they want to learn more? Sure, I'm never on Linkedin, so that's fair. I might reply like four weeks if after. That's me, but really, if you want to email me, it's real easy. It's toby at gorilla seventy sixcom as TLB. Why at Gorilla Seventy Sixcom and I will answer that. I'll probably answer in thirty seconds, but perfect. That's simple enough. Well, before we wrap it up, I want to say a big thank you to our sponsor, codeenis, part solutions, for helping make this show possible. Well again, thanks for don't join in, toby, and for the rest of you, I hope to catch you on the next episode of the Manufacturing Executive. You've been listening to the manufacturing executive podcast. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you'd like to learn more about industrial marketing and sales strategy, you'll find an ever expanding collection of articles, videos, guides and tools specifically for BTB manufacturers. At Gorilla, seventy sixcom learn thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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