The Manufacturing Executive
The Manufacturing Executive

Episode · 8 months ago

Fixing the Manufacturer-Distributor Relationship w/ Tom Paul

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Without our dealers and distributors, who would sell our products? Without us, what would they sell? 

We need each other. 

Why then is the relationship so often strained? 

Today’s guest, Tom Paul, Founder & CEO at BAM!, says it doesn’t have to be. All it takes is a little work from both parties… and maybe reading at least one 25-year-old article. 

In this episode, we discuss:

-Why the manufacturer-dealer relationship is so often fractured (and 3 steps to fixing it)

-The solution BAM! has created that helps address these very issues

-Why you shouldn’t pick your SaaS solutions based on Lord of the Rings

To ensure that you never miss an episode of The Manufacturing Executive, subscribe on Apple Podcasts, or Spotify..

Tom Paul can be found on LinkedIn here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-paul/ 

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for The Manufacturing Executive in your favorite podcast player.

I've never personally seen a relationship that is more symbiotic at its core than the manufacturer and sort of independent sales network relationship, because without the dealers and distributors, the manufacturer has no one to sell the equipment, and without the equipment they have nothing to sell. Welcome to the manufacturing executive podcast, where we explore the strategies and experiences that are driving midsize manufacturers forward. Here you'll discover new insights from passionate manufacturing leaders who have compelling stories to share about their successes and struggles, and you'll learn from B tob sales and marketing experts about how to apply actionable business development strategies inside your business. Let's get into the show. Welcome to another episode of the Manufacturing Executive podcast. I'm Joe Sullivan, your host and a CO founder of the Industrial Marketing Agency guerrilla seventy six. A vast majority of manufacturers I talked to invest heavily in their sales force. The higher great people. They train those people well, they arm them with tools, they send them where they need to go to build relationships with customers and prospects. Well, at least they do this when those salespeople operate as employees of the company, but what about dealers and distributors, the people who live outside the walls of the company but are often the ones responsible for owning that customer relationship? Why is it that so many manufacturing organizations fail to give these individuals the same kind of support that they would an internal employee who has the words sales in his or her job title? Today, my guest is going to dive into this topic. He'll talk about the problem and, more importantly, he'll talk about how to correct it. So, on that note, let's get into the conversation. Tom Paul is the CEO of Pop Art...

Inc, and award winning software development shop located in Portland, Oregon, that's developed custom application portfolios for clients including freight liner trucks, Louisiana Pacific siding carrier, air conditioning, UTC aerospace, the Oregon Lottery and Nike. In two thousand and eighteen, the pop art team launched Bam, a first of its kind SASS mobile sales tool designed to help manufacturers instantly enable and support their dealers and distributors. Prior to joining pop art, in two thousand Tom Served in the US army sy up and also worked in the translation industry. Toms a graduate of the defense language institute at the Presidio of Monterey, Fort Bragg's John F Kennedy Special Warfare Center and school and the Stanford Executive Institute. Tom, welcome to the show. Hey, thanks so much, Joe. It's great to be here. Awesome. We were introduced through one of my teammates at gorilla. I'm at Channella and I know he's doing some advising you on the side, and Matt said, Hey, you got to talk to Tom Because he's doing some really cool stuff in the manufacturing sector with sales enablement, which is a topic that we talked about a lot with our clients, and getting marketing and sales aligned, helping sales develop the processes and tools and content and systems to do their jobs better. And specifically, I know where you've sort of found your niches, helping manufacturers sort of build those relationships and enable their distribution network, dealers, distributors, and so I really loved the the fit here for a conversation because many of our clients are dealing with this and I know many of the listeners are as well. Yeah, thanks, yeah, Matt is really great for him to connect us and to sort of have the vision to see that. But yeah, I mean the space, I mean going all the way back to you mentioned. You know that I did a stint in style, right, and so the thing inside up it was all about winning hearts and minds, right, winning the hearts and minds of people. Say, you know. I mean it was popularized during the Vietnam War.

We want to win the hearts and minds of the people of Vietnam and I really think that that's kind of the mission here, right, is for manufacturers to win the hearts and minds of their independent dealers and distributors, and I think, I just think it's a really important problem. I don't think it's really being addressed effectively by almost anybody, and particularly I mean sales and have them, and is not covering these particular, you know, problem domain. And so we take it really seriously and we think it's really important. That's great. I'm glad somebody's tackling it. So let's why don't we kick this off at a really open ended question. What's broken today? Look what's broken and the typical relationship between manufacturers and their dealers, distributors yeah, I mean, I don't want to pile on, but I mean, where do you want me to start? There are a lot of issues and I think there's somewhat understandable issues because, you know, if you're a manufacturer and you're selling through a deal, you know, independent network of dealers and distributors, you may have hundreds of independent distributors that are selling your products right and they're they're the ones that are customer facinging because usually if you're a if you're a channel sales type manufacturer, it's usually your predominant, you know, way to reach the customer, and so you're really relying upon these outside partners. But it's a big group of companies, big network of dealers and distributors. They're spread all over the place. So there's the geographic distribution problem and then there's just a lot of I don't know, they're just isn't a lot of trust these days between the manufacturers and the distributors and so you know, we're talking about lacking trust, we're talking about inefficient tools that waste time and fundamentally, I think the most core issue is that there's a disconnect between like each it's almost like when you're in a bad relationship. Each side does not see the other ones perspective. When I talk to manufacturers and I say hey, what's going on with your dealers, they have all these complaints. You know, they come play and they say, Oh, our distributors. You know, they're lazy and they don't even want to go to the dealer portal and you know they don't read the stuff that we send them and all they do is...

...take orders. You know, they're not proactive sellers. You know they don't ask the right questions and they just have this list of complaints. And then we go and talk to the distributors and they say, well, manufacturers don't care about us, they're just trying to squeeze us on our margin. You know, they don't care. What's it? And so there's just a fundamental I mean in any relationship that's important, you need to understand the perspective of the other party, and I think that's the most fundamental thing. There's lots of other things about inefficiencies and friction and distance and whatever else, but at its core I just think these are these are two ships passing in the night that don't understand the other perspective. Yeah, I think that's a good overview. I was actually going to ask you about those two things, distance and friction, because those were, you know, something that you would I heard you talk about in our first conversation. So dive a little deeper. Tell me about distance and friction. What are those all about? Sure, well, think about distance as both. You know physical, you know geographic distance, right. So maybe you have, you know, dealers all over North America. Maybe you have a whole international distribution network, right, but there's time zones, there's just there's just a lot of distance to cover. But there's also that kind of emotional and relationship distance, right. It's just like, you know, maybe I mean with my with my parents, right, they live five minutes away, but I don't talk to him very much, and so it's just kind of I feel like there's a distance there because we just don't communicate that often. And that happens a lot with manufacturers and distributors, is they just don't talk very much. So that's part of what we mean when we talk about distances. There just isn't there isn't, you know, closeness, I mean. And you also may have that occasional friend that's like a lifelong friend, right, and you only talk to I have a few like this. You only talked to him once a year, but every time you talk to him you feel like, Hey, you just felt like yesterday that we talked. That's a close relationship, even though you don't talk that often. Right, but if you know. But, but, so I just think that that's a key thing and it just it, you know, lacking that closeness. And then the friction is when they do talk, when they do have interaction, let's say the manufacturer sending out the latest product,...

...materials brochure or just whatever communications, when at that touch point there can either be efficiency or not efficiency, and a lot of that has to do with friction. So the friction is kind of all of those little things that add up to make a touch point ineffective. So I'm just going to take one that we know really, really, really well. Let's say that you're a manufacture and you put some content onto a portal and then the way that you let your nine hundred distributors know about that is you send out an email and then at some point down the road you're talking with these distributors and they just never saw the email. They don't realize that that was ever put in the portal, and so there was friction there. There was loss of communication right because they just you thought that you got something out to them, but it was just kind of like throwing it out of the back of an airplane. So it's just kind of I think those two things are huge. You need to have close relationships and you need to reduce any possible for action point that you can. Yeah, well, summaries there, and we're going to swing back around to well, what are some of the solutions in a bit here, but I want to keep going on something first, due in our previous conversation Tom you'd reference to Harvard Business Review article dating all the way back to one thousand nine hundred and ninety six, about the sustained success of heavy equipment manufacturer Caterpillar, a name that everybody knows. It was titled Make Your Dealers Your Partners and was written by Cat's former CEO, and I think this, this article is ever green in the sense that it contains so many insights that hold true even twenty five years later. So I was curious what are some of your takeaways from this particular piece in regard to the necessity of building and nurturing exceptional relationships with your dealers and distributors. I'm really glad that you brought up that article because I think anybody who's listening to this or watching it who sells through an independent, you know, dealer and distributor network. Now we're speaking directly to those people. If you have not read this article, you need to make your dealers your partners and I think there's a lot of...

...really good tactical guidance in terms of how to develop a strong program with your dealers and distributors. And caterpillars a model, a model for this. I mean they and and what's amazing in the article is that, you know, the the then CEO talks about how this was a strategic advantage for them. They saw as a strategic advantage and I think that's the biggest takeaway from the entire article, and it's a deep article and it has a lot of special CIFIC recommendations if you want to, you know, have a better and stronger dealer and distributor network. But the biggest takeaway was that their perspective was that their dealers were could be a strategic advantage and that they could use the close relationships with their dealers and the dealers knowledge of customers, because right they stated the fact that we depend upon our dealers. You know, our dealers know our customers and factors a quote from the article. Our dealers know our customers better than we ever could write things like that. So they're respecting their acknowledging their dealers and then they're doing everything they can to support them, but again all through that Lens that are dealers. From their perspective, because they have dealers can be and are a strategic advantage if we leverage them with, you know, closeness, almost like a level of intimacy. We involve them in our IT infrastructure, in our training systems, we actively solicit feedback from them about what's working, what are the customers saying, and so I mean I just don't think there is a better single example of good thinking on this issue than that particular article. Yeah, we know. One thing you mentioned there Tom that I think really resonated with me is this idea that you your dealers, your distributors, these are the ones who are physically speaking with your customers. They're hearing the words from those people's mouths and we can make all the assumptions we want about what our customers care about and what products they want and how they want to be communicated with, etc. But when you know,...

...when you can go and just talk to the people who are interfacing directly from them and gather those insights, I mean not only is that going to be a way to help you figure out how to better serve them and how those insights can affect Rd, but you know it's going to play in your marketing and sales strategy and and the the content you create and like. It just touches so many different aspects of Your Business and all of this is at your fingertips, frankly. So I think leaning on those people to bring those insights back to you and having the strong enough relationship with them is just so important. That's completely huge, a thousand times yes to what you just said, Joe, and I think also that it's important just to add here that, because you know, when you think of the of the sort of you know the value chain, right, you have the manufacture and then you have the dealers in the distributors and then you have the customer. I think it's it's an important realization at some point to say that the manufacturer should view the dealer and distributor as the customer, right, because that's who they're trying to convince, right, and then the dealers and distributors are are the ones that are interfacing with the customer almost exclusively. But it's slightly different because they are your customer and you have to take care of them, but they are also a strategic lever for your business, and so it's not like you can just treat them like your best customers, because that would kind of not work exactly. You have to treat them like VIP sort of strategic customer that opens you up to other channels of business and and other markets, and so I think it's just kind of a little bit of a little bit of a distinction, but I mean, I just I just have to say that when you talk to a manufacture and or and you kind of glean from the manufacture that how they view their distributor relationships is as annoying middlemen that could almost just be cast aside. And Hey, I've actually heard this several times within the last several months and it's disheartening. where I'm talking to a manufacturer and I asked them if they sell through dealers or and distributors, and they say, you know what...

...we used to do, but we found it to be so problematic and so unprofitable that we just cut out that entire sales network and we've decided to go direct. And that stands in such stark contrast to what the HPR article says, because in at the Caterpillar CEO he specifically mentions this question. He says sometimes people ask me, wouldn't it be more profitable and in some ways easier to go direct to your customers and not to sell through dealers? And his quote was I would rather cut off my right arm then not sell through dealers because we value them that much. There's a powerful quote. Yeah, totally. I that really blew me away. So what I hear people say, Oh, let's cut out the dealers and distributors. I'm like look, man, you got to go read that article and about what you need to do differently. No kidding. Well, Tom let's get tactical for a minute here. I'd like to hear in terms of sales enablement with your distribution network, what are some of the most important things that you believe manufacturers can and should be doing to enable their dealers and distributors. Yeah, totally so. I think it comes down to a couple of things. I think number one is they have to do things that increase the level of trust. There's this thing called the trust formula, which I only discovered a couple of years ago. You can google it and it's and it's great and it's sort of gives you this conceptual model of Hey, if I want to increase trust with people, how do I do that? So you just got to so number one is you have to increase trust. Number two is, no matter what you're going to do, is you got to make their lives easier, right, and so you got to give them kind of a big easy button. So any tool, any process, any tactic, any objective that you're ever going to you know, unload is going to have to be easy to use, easy to process, easy to, you know, deal with, because you know, it's just kind of like imagine, I don't know, it's just imagine you're trying to equip firefighters or, you know, police officers or something who...

...are out in the field. You say, Hey, we're going to give them all this crazy tech and stuff and it's like look, they're out on the road, they're solving real world problems. You better make it pretty easy for them to use from their car or from the fire truck. I mean, otherwise, you know, how are they supposed to deal with some fancy software? But the final point, in addition to increasing trust and making it easy, the third general pillar that I would say is that the manufacturer just has to realize that they've got to make the first move because again, if you're in a broken or fractured relationship anywhere in your life, then you're just going to eventually resentment's going to set in and you're just going to think of the other person not as someone to solve problems with but as the enemy. And so eventually one person in the relationship, if it's ever going to be fixed, has to reach out and say look, I'm going to take the first move and I'm going to help us fix this. And it's always got to be the manufacturer. That's not the position where the distributes to do that. The distributors taking care of customers and trying to you know, trying to make your brand look good. So those are kind of be my three things. Make sure you it's increasing trust, make sure it's easy and manufacturer should make the first move. Great Advice. Love it. So let's talk about your product a bit. So Bam, you created this tool, essentially to a piece of software that addresses a lot of the things we're talking about now. Can you talk about how Bam fits into this dealer, distributor sales enablement picture? Yeah, totally. Well, we started with it back in two thousand and ten because one of our big manufacturing customers was freightliner trucks and they had a new truck coming online. They don't they don't have new trucks come online that often. It's every several years, maybe around every seven or eight years or something, and so they had this big launch coming up. But they realize that, you know, there there were some problems and they really love and value their dealer network, but they knew that there was some friction with how they got information out. So we just saw look, you know, we talked with them, we collaborated, we problem solved and we just both agreed, freight liner and the company, that there needed to be an...

...easier, faster, kind of almost like instantaneous way to get information out to them because, you know, these are people that are at dealerships or they're out talking to customers, and so they needed a mobile solution, and so that's when we came up with the freight liner sales tool on ipad. So it created this way for, you know, from the manufacturer side, to be able to just publish information at the click of a button. They could just load up some assets into the back end and just hit hit published and everybody instantly gets it. But then also the dealer has a nice way to share that information with with the customer. And so at that point we thought, you know, Oh, the fact that it's mobile, the fact that it's always with the sales representatives, seems like a really key part of this puzzle. And then the more we got into heavy equipment manufacturing, industrial manufacturing, we just realize that kept being a use case. And most of the companies that do digital asset management, to do sales enablement, are not focusing on the mobile first kind of idea. They're not focusing on the mobile experience. But that's where these people consume content or they're having a conversation with a customer and the customer asked a question and the rep needs to be able to quickly get that information instead of having to wait for a couple of days, and so that's really kind of where we sort of came up with this idea of it needs to be mobile, it's got to be in the person's pocket. That's a way to reduce friction. And then from there we also need to have back end admin to be able to easily publish. But that's really how we came up with the original idea of the solution, right, just to make it you know, again, just to kind of break it down and summarize, to make it easy for admins or marketing people at the manufacturing company, make it easy for them to organize, manage and publish information and extremely easy for the dealer or distributor Rep to access and share the content wherever they are. So that was just kind of like that was the basic, the basic sort of way we approached it. It's great, really smart solution. Like, what's the response been so far? It's been really good. I mean, I you know, I think there are a couple of interesting...

...sort of challenges in the space in terms of you know, I think I think there's this kind of tidal wave of change that's coming and we're still on the early part of it in terms of the entire the entire market, because sales reps it's not really going to be as much of a gradual shift, but there's a lot of these sales reps that are kind of they've been doing it for twenty, thirty years, right, and they're just about to kind of retire, kind of move on, and so there's a it's beginning, but there's going to be this huge generational shift in sales reps. they're actually selling this equipment and we know from talking to manufacturers and distributors that when the New People come in who are in there, you know, early twenties or whatever, they come in and they say, you know, when the training starts, they just say, Hey, where's my mobile APP? Just I want my mobile APP with push notifications to keep me informed of all this stuff, and so and so it's coming, you know. I mean some of the definitely are. Our customers have been and have been using our platform really well and they like it. That's cool. You kind of started answer my next question, which was why is this new way of supporting your distribution that work, especially through digital technology, so important at this moment in time? Anything you'd add to that? Yeah, I mean I do think that just sort of I mean it's so, so absolutely my last answer. So generational shift with people. But then also I think that the manufacturing industry on whether it's like more be to be, kind of it's all be to be, but whether it's industrial or whether it's machinery and kind of big iron and all that kind of stuff, I think that this is an industry that, quite frankly, it's been slow moving. Right, it's been, I mean, everybody, you know, when who who talks about the end of they say, wow, this industry is like way behind in terms of you know, it's Martech and it's other stuff like that, and so that's kind of just one of the you know, one of the other things that I'm beginning to see is that executives and everybody's becoming they're just becoming more openminded, I guess, to new ways of solving old problems. Right, and it's kind of like, you know, I use all the language, like you know,...

...some of these lines, like you can't make a chocolate cake with a vanilla cake recipe, and what got you here won't get you there. You know what I mean? It's like if you're not happy with your status, quo. Then you have to do something different, and you can either do something different that you know it is. It is another of the set of false beliefs that I have to try to dispel when I'm selling, which is, you know that like Oh, it's a technology, oh it's an APP, it's going to take twelve months, or Oh, it's an IT project, so it's going to cost, you know, a hundred, fifty thousand dollars. I mean, there's all these beliefs that people have based on what they've scar tissue, mental scar tissue, from all these it projects in the past, and so they find say, Oh, you're approaching this is a SASS solution. You know, oh it can, you know, be up and running within sixty days or even faster. You know, Oh, it's doesn't really cost that much. And so into those are just a lot of things, but I am seeing the market change that the readiness for is going to sound very strange, but the readiness for simpler solutions that are lighter weight and maybe a little bit more you know. I mean we're not a sledgehammer, were a scalpel, you know, and so somebody's got to be willing to pick up the scalpel and use it and say, you know, we can, we can apply this thinking and we can apply this solution to a specific set of problems and we can solve them quickly and effectively, as opposed to you know, I was talking to somebody the other day who basically didn't want to move forward with any project that didn't have a native hub spot integration, and it's like, I get that. You know, you want one ring to rule them all, you want one totally trackable, perfectly intact system from soup to nuts. But on the other hand, I've also been there as the person buying those tools and I know that sometimes it's better to have a solution that doesn't necessarily integrate with every other system and have it solve the problems that it solves at an a level, rather than have something that integrates into your whole flow and solves those problems at a sea level. Yeah, I...

...completely agree with you. I mean there's one ring to rule them all. Is, I like the Lord of the Rings Reference First of all, but I mean you're right. I think it's it's something that I follow into that trap myself over the course of my career and now you kind of come to learn. Sometimes you've got a maybe not a simple problem, but a very specific problem to solve and there are tools to do that. I think it's becoming more and more the case. So I like your perspective there. I mean, I'd be curious if I can ask you a quick question. Yeah, fire away. So you mentioned, I mean you work with a lot of, you know, with a lot of you know, be tob manufacturers, and you kind of mentioned mentioned sales enablement and I think you may you may be a little bit more in the industrial space and we work a lot with, you know, big machinery and, you know, farm equipment and construction equipment and commercial trucking and stuff like that. But do you see a lot of these same problems in, you know, in the type of companies that you help? Yeah, absolutely. I think the problem is pretty universal in the sense that when somebody who is responsible for selling your product falls outside the walls of your organization, like for one, you just lose some control. You don't always have full transparency into what those conversations look like unless you're actively seeking that stuff out from your distribution network. You know, I have one client who, you know, they were trying to help them connect the dots between their marketing activities and actual sale. And, you know, things that I'll hear from them are like, well, we don't even know who the end user actually is in a lot of cases, like we don't even know who's physically buying and I'm saying, well, can't you just get that information from your distributor? And Wow, it's not that. It's actually not that simple. And so which you know whether that's true or not. I mean, you know, that's not for me to decide, but we're trying to help them, help them figure that out. But I think it like one of the things we did for this client is we got them into a really a conversation with they're probably ten people on the call between people inside their organization and some of their distributors, and we just got them talking and we started to like, you know, and it's frankly, they could be doing...

...this, but we're kind of acting as a facilitator in this particular case. So, yes, it's the answer to your question is yes, this the things you're talking about right now, I think are true. Whether we're talking about, you know, some kind of ohm or value added reseller that's building on a piece of equipment and customizing it and selling it and there's a distributor dealer involved in a lot of these truths are our sort of universal and I mean that's amazing to hear all that. One of the things that's really interesting in what you just shared is, you know, I've seen the same thing. A lot of the distributors don't want to share their specific customer lists, they don't want to share their specific contacts, their specific, you know, relationship details, and you know why? Because they're worried that the company, the manufacturer, is going to start selling to them directly and cut them out. Caterpillar dealers would not need to be worried about that, you know, freightliner dealers would not need to be worried about that because of the premium gold standard of those relationships and of that level of trust, and so that's completely fascinating. You know, wouldn't be great to live in a world where the independent distribution channel would feel, would feel so much trusts for the manufacturer that it wouldn't matter if all of their customer names and information were revealed because there would never be a threat because the relationship would be so strong. That's the world I want to live in for sure, and I mean it's almost ironic about the situation is that, you know, if that trust and transparency and collaboration is there, everybody wins. Everybody does better. You know, the dealer distributor does better, the manufacturer does better, like it's a team effort here and kind of, you know, inviting that open relationship, relationship and, frankly, living with less fear would probably work in the best interest of everyone involved. That's really interesting. Yeah, I mean, you know, I've never personally seen a relationship that is more symbiotic at its core than the manufacturer and sort of independent sales network relationship, because without the dealers and distributors,...

...the manufacture has no one to sell the equipment and without the equipment they have nothing to sell. There you go, Tom Really enjoy the conversation. Is there anything you want to touch on? What kind of out of my questions, but I want to open it up to you in case there's anything I didn't ask you that you'd like to dive into here. No, I don't think so. I just do think that it is a it's a really interesting time and the main functions that we enter interact with our kind of manufacturing in and say, excuse me, marketing and sales, right, so heads of marketing, heads of sales and also the sea sweet. Sometimes the conversation will, you know, will sort of begin there, but I just think that it is I just think that it is extremely important for the people in these roles to actively be thinking about what can they do to improve upon things, because I think, I think all these companies have done such a wonderful job in innovating on their products. Right, these companies make world class products. I know you work with a bunch of world class manufacturing organizations, but they sort of they sort of need to recognize that in terms of their sales and marketing stack, and I think your particular customers are farther ahead because they're because they're working with you, but in terms of their sales and marketing kind of operations, their MARTEC everything like that, there's so many opportunities and I just think it's really it's really great for them. I mean it's so many different things, things like playbooks, right, getting kind of digital playbooks out there, whether it's through Bam or other things. So you're helping the reps know the right questions to ask and how to be more of the consultative seller than just the passive order taker, you know. So there's just that there's so much opportunity if companies just get a little bit more, I guess, creative and with a sense of urgency and their pro I'm solving in their innovation. Good way to wrap it up. Well, Tom can you tell our audience how they can get in touch with you and also where they can learn more about Bam, the dealer distributor software that you've developed? Yeah, a...

...hundred percent. So the website is just Bam sales dot ioh that we have plenty of stuff on there, including kind of like how you know, some customer success stories, right, so just kind of relevant stuff if people want to see, you know, what kind of results. We also have a lot of blog content and youtube. We have a youtube channel that's linkable. That's linkable in there and of course I'm on Linkedin. So just you know, Tom Paul and you know look up Bam sales enablement or, you know, pop art INC and so I'm out there. We'd love to connect with people and just kind of you know, just kind of start a conversation. Awesome. It sounds great tom thanks again. Great Conversation. Joe, thanks so much. Really appreciate being here and love what you're doing with the with the show in the podcast. I appreciate that. As for the rest of you, I hope to catch you on the next episode of the Manufacturing Executive. You've been listening to the manufacturing executive podcast. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you'd like to learn more about industrial marketing and sales strategy, you'll find an ever expanding collection of articles, videos, guides and tools specifically for be tob manufacturers at gorilla seventy sixcom learn thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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