The Manufacturing Executive
The Manufacturing Executive

Episode 111 · 4 months ago

Optimizing the Value of your Manufacturing Business

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Fran Brunelle is President of Accelerated Manufacturing Brokers, Inc., a company specializing in the sale of lower middle-market manufacturing companies. Fran was named one of the most influential women in M&A (mergers and acquisitions) in 2020. She is also the host of the Women and Manufacturing Podcast. Fran helps manufacturing business owners prepare their companies for sale and navigate the sale process to ensure positive financial results. 

Join us as we discuss:

  • Factors that buyers will look for when when evaluating a potential acquisition
  • How to plan for your exit, even if it’s many years down the road
  • How your brand image will affect your valuation
  • Why right now is a better time than ever to sell

Someone asked me Um what the definition of business growth was, and my response was continual improvement. If you are not doing that, you are going backwards. Welcome to the manufacturing executive podcast, where we explore the strategies and experiences that are driving mid size manufacturers forward. Here you'll discover new insights from passionate manufacturing leaders who have compelling stories to share about their successes and struggles, and you'll learn from B two B sales and marketing experts about how to apply actionable business development strategies inside your business. Let's get into the show. Welcome to another episode of the Manufacturing Executive podcast. I'm Joe Sullivan, your host and the CO founder of the Industrial Marketing Agency guerilla seventy six. Whether it means passing a business on to the next generation or selling to an outside buyer, any manufacturing business owner will reach a point where he or she needs to transition out. But the time for that owner to start thinking about how to create value in the business needs to start long before that day comes, and, as my guest today will tell you, the things that help you build a successful company happen to be the same things that will make your business valuable in the eyes of its future owners. Let me introduce her. Fran Burnell is the founder of accelerated Manufacturing Brokers Inc, which specializes in the sale of lower middle market manufacturing companies nationally. Fran and her team helped to ensure the continuity of US manufacturing by transitioning ownership to the next generation of entrepreneurs. Recently, Frand was named one of the most influential women in mid market M and a, or mergers and acquisitions. Fran is also the host of the wham women and manufacturing podcast, a jacket media production. Frand rights on topics that help manufacturing business owners prepare their companies for sale and navigate the sales process to ensure a positive financial result in support of their retirement. Fran, welcome to the show. Hey, thanks so much for having met Jo. It's a pleasure to be here. Yeah, it's great to have you here. I love, I always love, having another podcast host on and it makes it easy because it's not your first Rodeo doing this and and I love, I love your your expertise here. I think you've you've got Um you know you and I've had a number of conversations before and I think that you've got a lot of valuable insights here from your experience working with the exact audience of this show. and Um, and so yeah, let's I think let's get straight into the conversation here. Good. So, Fran, you told me in a previous conversation that the things that make a manufacturing business successful are usually the same things that make them easy to sell and at higher prices. And this is such a logical but really smart statement, I bet. Also, it's it's not how business owners are always thinking, though, is it? No, it's not, um, but it it is completely true, Um, things that oftentimes manufacturers kind of coast on the way to retirement, and they shouldn't be, because it's going to affect what they get for their business. So they should be thinking about things like the dependency of the business on them as a shareholder. You need to transition away from that. That means training your staff, developing leaders, developing a team where that tribal knowledge of the company rests not just in one or two people. Right. Um, it also means embracing embracing change, new technologies that come out in manufacturing equipment. You...

...know, your manufacturing equipment may work perfectly, but if there is a newer version of machine and technology out that can produce the same type of part at three times the speed, you will eventually be out of business if you do not embrace that new technology, because your competitor will be able to make the parts faster. There's just there's all kinds of things. Um, one of the things that good buyers look for is standard operating procedures. Are they documented? And buyers worry about things like this because if there's not and something happens to the seller post acquisition, Um, and and the company has not been properly transitioned, the buyer's entire investment is at risk. Um. So, UH, Standard Docu operating procedures. You know, lack of dependency on this seller. Embracing change and embracing new technology. Also things like Um, what are you doing to ensure that you will have a pipeline of skilled workers? You talked to manufacturers around the country and I'm sure you talked to very few who don't complain about this skills gap. But the difference is not everyone is experiencing this in the same way. Those who are taking action are seeing a lot less difficulty in attracting skilled workers. So these are things that buyers look for and they actually cause a company to trade at a higher multiple. It's very interesting. Yeah, it really is. You know, it's it's I've been given advice by I've received lots of bad advice along the way and lots of good advice in building my business. and Um, you know, I remember there was an advisor. His name is David Baker. He advises manufacturing. I'm sorry, he advised his marketing agencies like US specifically, and Um, you know, one of the pieces of advice that we we sort of gleaned from him years back was to just you always need to be running your business as if you are planning to sell it, and even though that's, you know, for me, it's never, never, never been my intention. At some point we'll think about exit strategy, I'm sure, but right now we're running a business we love. But if you just kind of always think of it through that Lens, you're making decisions that are in the best long term interest of your business. It's going to be the same stuff that's just going to help us be successful as opposed to, you know, just sort of fighting the fires that are are here on the surface are trying to, you know, make numbers look better than they really are, when it really doesn't, you know, doesn't mean a whole lot. So I imagine there are quite quite a few parallels here to what you see in your world. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny because I say that the opposite of the way that the coach does. I say, run it like you're not selling it, running it like you're gonna be in it for the next two decades, right where you have to. You have to worry about continued improvement. Um, yeah, it's when they're spitting towards retirement and kind of letting things slide that's when manufacturers get into trouble. Their sales start to slip. Staff recognizes it. The culture change changes, people start moving to other manufacturing companies for employment. It's dangerous to start skating. If I was recently Um on another podcast and someone asked me, Um, what the definition of business growth was, and my response was continual improvement. If you are not doing that,...

...you are going backwards. Yeah, I really like that and I suppose regardless of how you look at it, it's you gotta be thinking about the long term, not putting band AIDS on for the short term, really right. Right. So, friend, you started to get into this a little bit and I know you have, what is it like, a one hundred forty point checklist or something of things that you know manufacturer needs to be sort of thinking about to Um as as you're, you know, approaching, you know, potentially selling your your business. But I'd love you know, obviously we can't sit here and go through one a one forty, but what I'd love for you to do is, you know, maybe hit on a few that you think are particularly important, um, or even some that you know you feel like maybe less obvious or even a little surprising to manufacturing business owners, because you know you you said it to me on a previous conversation. But Um, there's so much more than just say, adjusted Ebada that is going to factor to the sale of business. Right. Yeah, that's absolutely true. It's funny, after our last conversation, Um, my staff actually started looking and they went you keep saying it's a hundred and forty. It's over a hundred and seventy five. So, you know, here's what I would say to manufacturers. Um, first of all, whether or not you're considering a retirement. Right now it's very important for you to understand the value of your business and what affects value right and if someone is speaking to you in terms of value Um as simply a multiple of adjusted Ebida, you need to run in the other direction seriously, because there are so many different items that affect value Um. And and again we've it's over under and seventy five different data points that we look at. So we're diving into things like, of course there's this standard things like customer concentration, sector concentration, but we're importantly diving into who are this manufacturers customers? How large are they? How dependent is that menu that o e m say on that manufacturer? Are they sole source with them? What is there? What is their on time delivery record with them? These are all things that that speak into value right Um. The sector concentration is not always relevant. We do a lot of work in the aerospace sector and if you know, if a buyer comes along and and comments on UH sector concentration for an aerospace component manufacturer, our response is typically well, Cupcakee this is not an acquisition for you because if you're doing anything of relevance within the manufacturing sectors you're in. Within the aerospace sector you are going to have a customer concentration. So it's you know, these items might be different depending on the sector. You know, we'll look at things like what is the company culture? Do People want to work there? You know, this speaks into Um being able to have a pipeline of of future workers. Um. Just, Oh my gosh, there's so many different things. Um. You know what? What is the difficulty of the components they're making? How many people in the country have um? We just listed a company. We don't. We haven't taken it to market yet, but there are manufacturer of Um molds for plastic injection molding and mold bases. But they're really unique in that the size part that they're making almost nobody can do this. There's only a few people well in the country. That makes them more...

...valuable. So just so again, so far beyond a multiple of adjusted IBADA. And what happens is there might be like an industry standard for a multiple, but it goes up or it goes down depending on all of these other factors and they all play into it. Do you have standard operating procedures? What's the bench of managers that you have in place? Do you have long term contracts, um? Do you have blanket purchase orders with timed releases? Length of customer relationships? So I mean you could just go on forever and ever. That's great. I'M gonna come back around at the end of our our conversation here and have you kind of direct people to your your business website and everything. But is there? Is there a place, as you rattle off these factors, you have something published on your site right where people can kind of look at all these factors? So we have Um. We have a learning center which is basically our our blog Um. In it they'll find things like the definitive guide to preparing your company for sale. It's something every manufacturer should read, even if you're not prepared to retire for another decade start worrying about this stuff now. I love when people come to us in advance and start the conversation like what do I need to I'm not ready yet, but what do I need to be aware of, because it gives them time to correct things right. So we had a we had a conversation with Um, a delightful manufacturing company who we will um very much enjoy working with when the time is right. Um. But through the valuation process we discovered that they had a real issue with um working capital. So in lower mental market deals there's a working capital requirement, Um, and it's it's a math calculation. It's basically your current assets less your current liabilities. Buyers will look at a twelvemonth average and we'll set a target and to the extent that working capital exists above or below at the time of closing, the purchase price will be adjusted. So if a company really doesn't have any they they they were a company that has to have a lot of inventory right, um, but they really don't have payables to offset the working capital requirement can be huge. Well, this company was paying bills when they were still warm from the mailman's hand and so their working capital number was was off what it should have been by about a million dollars. And so okay, we can here's how you correct that. Right. And so if he had not come to us in advance, he wouldn't have known this and he was not at a place where he had to retire. He was just trying to take advantage of a very strong market. Yeah, other people, Um, a company in New England. We rejected them twice, but they did what we told them to do. They doubled their sales as a result, UM, and now they're ready to to enter the M and a process and they'll be successful. That's great. You know, I imagine they are just Um. You probably see the opposite thing to where people are. They're not preparing ahead of time and they want to exit their business in a year and there's so much to do. So if you can just get out ahead of that and at least be informed on what things you need to be thinking about so when you reach that point it's not a scramble. Yeah, that's true. You asked me Um as part...

...of the prior question. What are some unusual things that affect value that maybe people don't think of? Um. One of the things is again, often on the approach to retirement, as they're retiring, maybe their website has not been updated in ten, fifteen, twenty years, Um, and it looks like it was put into place while Bill Clinton was in office. Well, you know, if you're a lower middle market manufacturer, what you need to realize is a company that's going to acquire you is much larger. Um. Everything we've sold in the last year, almost two years sold in an all cash transaction. So if someone has the ability to write a check for your manufacturing company, they're not going to pay their nephew to throw up some uh, you know, one page website. It's not going to happen. They want to protect their investment. So think about it. They're gonna, uh, you know, think about a website that's perhaps cost between fifty thousand and a hundred thousand dollars. You know, you say no big deal in Um, you know, in the big scheme of things, if it's a million dollar manufacturing company. Well, it is a big deal to your retirement. Here's why, when they remove that fifty to a hundred thousand dollars of cash flow that they're not going to experience because they have to invest in this. It's not just that money. What multiple was applied to this, to that cash flow, to arrive at the value right? So most recently we were selling at roughly at a seven x multiple for a good quality manufacturing company with all of the characteristics that I described. So fifty thousand dollars at a seven an x what you're talking three thousand dollars if it's a hundred thousand dollars for the website. You're taking seven hundred thousand dollars away from your retirement. It's a big deal and it's something that people don't think about because when they did it, when they put it into place, they were a two million dollar manufacturing company and their neighbor's kid put the website up for them. Well, the person that's going to write a check for fifteen or twenty million dollars is not going to do that. Yeah, that's a really good point there. There are certain I can't help, as a marketing guy myself, to think about some of those things that are probably not on the mind of a traditional manufacturing business owner who's, you know, second, third, fourth generation maybe Um. So I'm curious from your perspective, like what what value is there in, say, being able to demonstrate that you have a new business pipe line that is in place through, say, search and people that are inbound leads through search engines and where you actually you have attributed quoted business to a marketing program or, you know, even on the sales side, having, Um, being able to demonstrate some attribution for what you're doing. Like are those things that get looked at in this process. Oh absolutely. It is um imperative that UM manufacturers maintain an upward trajectory of their sales. Companies that do that and are selling while they're on the up are going to trade at higher multiples. And again, often on the approach to retirement. People don't worry about these things. Well, they should, you know, and I think a lot of it is Um. You know, back when they went into business in the late eighties, perhaps in the early nineties, it was a different world. The inner that wasn't used the way it is today.

Right Um, perhaps the the buyer that Um is ordering parts Um from, for Boeing, from their company Um or, you know, uh secore ski or whatever that person that's that they've dealt with for decades is, is of your age. They're ready to retire. What happens when they do and they're replaced by someone fresh out of college? That person wants to not just do things the same old way. They want to make a name for themselves and they want to discover whether or not um there's a better choice out there for components for their employer, and they're gonna turn to the Internet, they're gonna turn to social media. So it's imperative that manufacturers be visible, Um, on the social channel. Yeah, well, it's it's Um. I like hearing that coming from someone in your seat because it's obvious to me. But and I don't think it's not obvious to a lot of business owners who have kind of been doing things the same way on the Business Development Front for so many years. And you know what, listen that it's the sales and marketing aspect is the thing that is most often lacking in a founders lead manufacturing company, and I what I don't want to do is leave the impression that manufacturers have to be perfect to enter the M and a process, because they don't. Um. What what we're discussing today is how to get optimal pricing right. The sales and marketing aspect does not necessarily scare buyers away if it doesn't exist, and the why of that is that, Um, it's something that's easily correct actable, Um, and there are firms like yours that can help acquirers navigate this easily and seamlessly. Right. So it's not a it's not as big an issue in M and a as it would be if there were no standard operating procedures, if the company was completely dependent on this seller. These are things that dramatically affect value. Well said. Okay, let's take a quick break here. I want to let a couple of our strategists at Gril tell you about something pretty cool that we're doing right now for marketing folks in the manufacturing sector. Peyton and Mary, take it away. Yes, so I'm Peyton Warrant and I'm Mary Kio. Twice a month we host a live event called industrial marketing live. Right now we have a group of fifty plus industrial marketers from a variety of manufacturing organizations. We meet up digitally to learn, ask Question Sans Network and get smarter. Every session has a designated topic and one of our team members at guerrilla seventy six opens up by teaching for the first half hour or so. Topics have included how to get better at a manufacturing Webinar, getting started with paid social on Linkedin, how to optimize your website for conversions, creating amazing video content and so much more. After we break it down, we open it up to q and a so we can help you apply all of this in your own businesses. This is pure value, no cost, no strings attached, no product or service pitches, just so unadulterated learning experience. Oh and on top of these live sessions, we've also opened up a slack channel where our attendees bounce ideas off each other and learned together all week long between sessions. We're building a true community of manufacturing marketing professionals here. So if you or someone at your company has...

...the Word Marketing in his or her job title, please consider telling them about it. They can visit industrial marketing live dot com to register. We love to see you there. Friends shifting gears here. We're recording this in early July. All signs right now are pointing to a recession. What's the market look like right now from the standpoint of selling a manufacturing business? You know, even though so most people say, we're kind of already in a recession. Many say the worst of it is going to hit Um uh in, we are not seeing a slowdown in manufacturing M and a. We are still very much in a seller's market. It's amazing. This is the strongest market like last year into this year, strongest market I've seen in my entire career. So companies are trading and so referring to the market pulse report, which tracks the M and a industry quarterly, not just manufacturing, all of them and a right. So manufacturing the numbers tend to go higher than the general population because they're more for many quarters running, manufacturing engineering companies have been the most sought after nationally, but generally speaking, companies have been trading at a hundred and seven percent of list price. So it is a fabulous time to sell. Yeah, this there's one of the fascinating things that came out of the covid pandemic Um companies that were not traditionally invested in manufacturing. Everybody wants to buy a manufacturing company because they were not shut down. They were deemed essential during the lockdowns, right, and so you could have private equities that were previously invested in other sectors. Now they're all driving towards manufacturing. Um, and not necessarily that our clients want to sell to someone that doesn't have manufacturing experience, but they're wonderful participation in the process and the competition drives pricing upward. So it's it's just a fabulous time. That's really interesting to hear. It's probably not what a lot of people would expect, but um it's you're you're right in the middle of it. So I published an article recently on my website where we talk about the fact that there, listen, there's a lot of things in the economy that are telling us where we're heading into trouble. Right and so, Um, the article looks at the history of how, uh, the manufacturing sectors get hit during a recession and historically, statistically, they get hit worse than other segments of the population. The good news is they come out of it quicker, uh, at least they have historically. So what I would say to manufacturers is, if they were considering retiring next year or in early have a conversation with an M and a professional about where the market is now and what the value of your company is. Now. You might not in every case, but in some cases, Um, it might be better for a seller to enter the process now. Um, you know, Um, acquisition lenders and buyers typically look at a trailing thirties to thirty six months. So once you have that bad year in the...

...mix, you've got three years to get that out of the calculation. Right. So you're you're better off selling in a very strong market in advance of that downturn. Otherwise you may be in a position where you're forced to wait to get the number that you need for retirement. Fran, have you found that geographical location of a potential buyer tends to have much impact? Is it really? You know, do I guess? In other words, when you when you're listening a manufacturer that wants to sell, do you find the potential buyers tend to be local or regional or they come from further away? And is any of that changing? So so I'll refer back to that same market pulse report by Pepperdine University. Um this has showed. They do this quarterly. They track the end straight and for every quarter for the last several years. Um buyers of lower middle market companies are coming from more than a hundred miles away. In my world, they're coming from other states, they're they're sometimes on the other side of the country. We just recently sold something out on the West Coast and uh, the acquirer was from Texas, but they had people look at them from uh, Michigan, Illinois, Massachusetts. The people that were bidding on this were from all over the country and that is typical of what we see. So you know a few things here and I realized what I'm about to say a self serving but it also happens to be the truth. Um, specialization within M and a matters, right if the buyers are coming from all over the country. Uh an M and a professional that a manufacturer is talking to better have a national following, you know. And the other thing is this. There are there are in today's market for, and again only speaking about lower middle market manufacturing companies, there are three types of buyers. There's a large strategic buyer, a private equity, but there's also an individual buyer who perhaps worked for a fortune one manufacturer and they've been in a leadership position there and they know a thing or two about business development and they're tired of doing it for somebody else and they're going to leave that to make an acquisition for their own. Um. We've had we've got an interview with someone on our website that this was exactly the case. He was a CEO of a publicly traded manufacturing company, left that to acquire his first business, which he brought through us. He has since bought I think, four manufacturing companies. So here's the thing. If someone so as you're considering an M and a professional, finding the large strategics and finding a private equity Um that's invested in a similar space. Those are easy to find. Anybody can find them. That's low hanging fruit. You can buy a list any day of the week, spend a few bucks and you can find out who these people are. That third category is a little bit harder to find. You actually have to create the conditions for them to find you, because it's not like you can you can advertise to all of these separate you know individuals within a company and know who might be ready to make an acquisition. You've got to create the conditions for them to find you. That's why specialization...

...and working nationally is important. You'RE NOT gonna get any arguments for me about the the value of specializing within your space in my world too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I believe and I think that Um, people who are really serious about a subject, whether it's M and a, selling their business or hiring a marketing agency to improve their business, if they're smart, they're going to look for a specialist. MM HMM. Yeah, good advice there. For a lot of you know, owners and manufacturing companies, they've you know, they this is their baby right. They brought this up. They've, you know, a lot of blood, sweat and tears that have gone into it over the years. Maybe it's maybe the business has been in the family for multiple generations, regardless of Um, the city Asian. I imagine it's, you know, there's a lot of emotional decisions that, you know, feelings tied up in this and just a lot somebody goes through Um that probably, you know, caused people to maybe take longer than they would and and other decisions they make in their life. But, Um, I'm just kind of curious if there's imagine you've seen a lot of success stories over the years of transitioning businesses. I'm wonder if there's one or two you'd like to tell that just sort of you know, show show what it's been like for somebody to go through this, even if maybe there was some hesitation. Sure. So the first one that comes to mind probably because of the way you just intro that question, but we sold a company. They were a specialty of and manufacturer Um. The owner was Marshall Clemschewski. Um. He actually recently did a testimonial video for us. Um. He waited a very long time to sell and he really didn't want to. He loved what he did. To this day he still loves it and wishes he was still there. But you know sometimes, as as you know, founders start to age, the wife get gets concerned about their health, wants to spend some time with them, wants to travel. But Um, Marshall was, um, really, really concerned about his staff and he wanted us to find someone with specific industry experience. Um. So they weren't just in so I'm calling them a specialty oven manufacturer. These ovens were built for specific purposes. The unique like one of them, uh, the nose cone of the Javelin missile, was every one of them was in one of these ovens. Another one a tool used in brain surgery, for brain aneurisms. Everyone of them in one of these ovens. So when I was charged with, Um, finding someone with industry experience, you talk about finding a needle in a haystack, um, but we did. We found Um, a younger guy half more marshal's age, who had Um. He came out of a very large manufacturer and again tired of making somebody else rich. And it was the perfect, the absolute perfect match Um and both sides. We were just up there in Connecticut recently. Both sides were are still very happy Um and and both sides still like each other, which is the story that we want to see. At the end of the day. Um a more common story, I would I would also tell ish we sold a UM C and C component manufacturer who was services ing Um large agriculture like mega agriculture equipment and hydraulics. And here the...

...story was different. There were two owners. One was older than the other and the sale was being sparked by the elder's desire to retire. Um. The younger offers to buy him out. They don't like the price. They think they can do better, which is how they end up on my doorstep. But they had completely competing one wanted to exit almost immediately and the other was, I think, only thirty nine years old at the time, still had kids in school. He was nowhere near ready to retire. So for him we had to get Um, you know, a long term arrangement, and he ends it up um investing in the acquiring companies. It was more like a merger than an acquisition. And again both side are doing fabulous and in it for both of these shareholders. We were able to get them what they wanted, and that's something I think um manufacturers don't realize. If they have a partner and there's competing interest and desire exit timelines, they think they're stuck. They're not stuck. They're absolutely not stuck. The young man I described in the CNC component manufacturer, he will have a second liquidity event that will absolutely rival the first. That's fantastic. Yeah, imagine there are a lot of ways to get to the outcome you want sometimes, and that's where the expertise comes in, right, and you haven't seen so many different companies and situations. There's they're probably a lot of ways to get there. Yeah, the other thing we see a lot is manufacturers. They grow and then they hit a plateau and they're not sure what to do next, and that is something that a good m n, a professional can help you with. Um. They can help to partner you with someone that can provide Um what you're lacking and get you to a whole new level. And so I always say to people, you know, never, never, only trade, never trade stock for only money. Make sure that the person, Um that is getting that stock stock brings something to the table that helps the company grow. I love it. Well, friend, we've covered a lot here. Is there anything I didn't ask you that you'd like to touch on, or any kind of parting advice you'd give to manufacturers? My only parting advice would be um plan or Ali. Oh my gosh, it can make all the difference in the world. This is something so statistically, manufacturers wait until they are ready to be retired to start the process of investigating Um what is required in in an M and a transaction. Start early, start a few years early. There are things that we can share with you um that you can implement that will absolutely change your retirement dollars. It's I cannot emphasize that enough. That's great advice. Well, Fran this was a really good conversation today. I appreciate you doing this. Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me and thank you for all you do to highlight manufacturing. I'm a fan of your podcast. Watched several episodes and always very inform native,...

...really good. I appreciate that. Friend. Thank you. Can you can you tell our listeners here, because you yourself are a podcast I'd love for you to talk a little bit about the women in manufacturing podcast as well as um point our listeners to where they can learn more about accelerated manufacturing brokers. So I am one of the host of the women and manufacturing podcast. It's Um. It's owns by jacket media company. Um. I volunteer for this just because I meet fabulous women business owners Um and so we're always open to any Um, anyone in women in manufacturing who would like to be on the show Um or if they're an in an industry that services the manufacturing community, you know, perhaps Um a software and the ERP system we've I've interviewed many women that are in Um UH industries that are servicing manufacturing. Always fascinating conversations. So if people would like to Um, first of all for manufacturers, I would encourage them to visit our website Um, particularly the blog. There's tons of information there that will help you get ready for sale. So it's accelerated M F G BROKERS DOT COM, UM and they can my email address is Fran at accelerated MFG BROKERS DOT com. They can reach out to me on Linkedin, Francis Brunow. So, Yep, well, beautifully. Please do go check out the accelerated manufacturer manufacturing broker's website. Um, frands knowledge is, as you've probably experienced here, just listening to her is just immense here, and and and one thing I loved, Fran, when I first met you, I looked at your learning center. I said, here's somebody in manufacturing who is actually doing an amazing job just publishing great advice for her audience, and there's a lot there. So, Um, I think take friends advice here. Whether or not you are a are somebody who is thinking about exiting anytime soon or making a transition in your business. It's it's never too early to start informing yourself and becoming knowledgeable about what matters, because it's going to help you grow your business anyway. So please go, go check out what they're doing. Great, well, Fran, thanks again. This is really great. Thank you so much for having me. You're a delight. Well, thank you, Fran. And as for the rest of you, I hope to catch you on the next episode of the Manufacturing Executive. You've been listening to the manufacturing executive podcast. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you'd like to learn more about industrial marketing and sales strategy. You'll find an ever expanding collection of articles, videos, guides and tools specifically for B two B manufacturers at guerrilla seventy say dot com slash learn. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time, M M.

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