The Manufacturing Executive
The Manufacturing Executive

Episode · 2 years ago

Right People, Right Companies: How to Launch ABM as a Manufacturer w/ Sangram Vajare


You can market your products just about any way you want to. You can pour money into trade shows, pay-per-click campaigns, or print ads. Personally, I'm a big advocate of inbound marketing, but inbound means playing a very long game. Because of that, I advocate supplementing inbound with identifying the right people from the right companies for a special sales-plus-marketing solution.

I'm talking about account based marketing (ABM). 

Now if you want to learn about ABM, go see Sangram Vajre, author, co-founder at Terminus, and the man who sired ABM from 50,000 feet in the air. Or you can just listen to this episode of the podcast where Sangram and I talk about:

  • A solid definition of ABM
  • What intent data is and how to use it
  • Why you shouldn't treat all your accounts the same
  • How small to mid-sized businesses can apply ABM methodology

Resources we talked about:

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On an average, if your bat sides about fifty K and if you have more than three people do for people bar the decision making process, and if your sale sacket is longer than six months, I think abim is a perfect fit for you. Welcome to the manufacturing executive podcast, where we explore the strategies and experiences that are driving mid size manufacturers forward. Here you'll discover new insights from passionate manufacturing leaders who have compelling stories to share about their successes and struggles, and you'll learn from B tob sales and marketing experts about how to apply actionable business development strategies inside your business. Let's get into the show. Welcome to another episode of the Manufacturing Executive podcast. I'm Joe Sullivan, your host and a cofounder of the Industrial Marketing Agency guerrilla seventy six so as a bdb manufacturer, there are a lot of ways to do marketing. Traditionally, many of you have poured money into trade shows, printed materials, maybe, print ads or paper click. Those of you who have modernized your approach of found your way into content marketing, inbound SEO and so on. And don't get me wrong here I'm a huge advocate for inbound and content market, huge advocate. We do of ourselves, we do of our clients, and with plenty of success. But, as I often explain, generally speaking, in bounds is a long game. Your con sistantly creating and publishing expert content. You're building authority for your website and slowly more of the right people from the right companies start to find you and engage with you and start conversations with you, and this is absolutely something you should be doing because it's sustainable. It's a sustainable way to go your business. But there's no magic button you can push to win the inbound game. If you're doing it right, it requires some serious blood, sweat and tears in most cases, and it takes time, it takes patience to build that machine. And so, because of that, I'm also a huge advocate of supplementing inbound with a more proactive marketing approach where you're identifying the right people from the right companies, those buying process influencers inside those organizations, and then you go get them. And this is exactly what we are going to talk about today, account based marketing, or ABM as it's often called. So if you were to ask me, Joe, who is the one single person I should go learn about when you're thinking about abm, I would point you to Sangrum Vajre, and it just so happens that that is exactly who we are interviewing today. So sangrum, to give a little introduction, ran marketing at par dot, acquired by exact target, and then exact target was acquired by sales force for two point seven billion. Soon after that, Sangram cofounded terminus, which hit one million in the first year, five million in the second and fifteen million in the third year, ranking twenty one and deloit's fastest growing companies list named back to back as one of the best places to work. Also, on Linkedin all own sang rum has over fifteenzero subscribers to was weekly, becoming intentional newsletter, and over ten million views of his content in just the last two years. Sang Rum has...

...quickly become a marketing and leadership expert and has been named one of the top twenty one BDB influencers in the world by DMN network. Sang Rum's the author of two books on marketing, a frequent keynote speaker, a host of the top fifty business podcast called flip my funnel, with over half a million downloads and, if I saw correctly, I think six hundred some episodes at this point, which blows my mind. So, Sangrum, I am literally Giddy that you are here on our show today. Welcome that a draw like, oh my God, like most people, like a me get over with and like but Joe, you. I'm so grateful that the Apotoch me and on this podcast and I love the fact that it's your podcast. Your episodes are niche in industry, so I think I wish more people would do that. Yeah, absolutely. Well, yeah, thanks for being here and me, this is I'm super excited for this conversation. ABM is it something we're talking about constantly with our clients at this point, and five years ago it's like this acronym that you know, most people didn't even know you did, but, like you know, it was sort of an evolving and emerging thing and, especially in the manufacturing sector we're marking, tends to be kind of lagging about, you know, far lagging behind SASS and also behind most professional services. So it's kind of finding its way into the manufacturing world the last few years and we're big advct kits of a BM. So you know that's sad. This is I'm excited to have you here. Man. What's also exciting in general for me when I think about this five year like twenty fourteen, two thousand and fifteen, when we started terminus and just the idea of ABM, the idea of flip my funnel and that sense, is that my own understanding of that has evolved like I wish I could say, man, I knew, Joe, I knew exactly what this is, and this is not true, not to it all. In two thousand and fifteen what I understood, and when I wrote the facebook and Accountas Marketing, there was a concept that I felt they got to be a better way. And then in two thousand and nineteen, when I wrote the second book, I feel like you could see that I literally moved on from Oh, it's not just a better mousetrap, it as it is actually a better marketing strategy, it's a better go to market strategy. So it's no longer ABM for the sake of ABIUM. It's big to be. So it's been fascinating to just go through that. Personally, I'm from a journey perspective. Yeah, I imagine you've probably just I mean you, I know you've seen it all. You've you were kind of at the forefront of this movement. And so, given who were talking to here, we're not talking mostly to people in software who are, you know, tend to be super innovative in the marketing front. A lot of my audience here on the show is midsize manufactures. Like I said the INTRO, they they've leaned on trade shows and print ads in the past and so in are starting to do more content marketing the last few years and in Don but can you just kind of give an overview, like what are we talking about here exactly? When you talking about a countpace marketing and the core of Fed, I mean there are probably a hundred, seventy nine buzzworthy definitions of it, so I'll save you from that. In the layman terms, it is really focused marketing and sales together. That's a it's a one team approach to go after the right accounts that matter to you for your business and... do any and everything to win those accounts. And I say that and then might people are like, will wait a minute, that's the isn't that what margeting and sales is supposed to. Yeah, you're right, they should be, but that's not what's happening most organizations. Marketing is giving sales people leads and spe sales seems like, well, that's not the rightly, but if you really boil it down, widse that that happening. It's not because sales don't want leads. It's not that marketing is just giving them bad leads. It's like there's no sales empathy in the process. And what I mean by that is the title of a salesperson in most organization is account executive, so they already understand accounts that you ask any sales person, what are your top five accounts that you're working on, they would tell you they don't have to look at sales for don't have to look at anything. But if you ask your marketing team what are the top five accounts your sales people are working on, they had no idea. And there what lies the issue of inbound only or anything like that? As you shared, it's like, yes, we got to create top of the former content, but gosh, if you don't help our sales people win, we will to lose our jobs and that's what account is marketing allows you to do is to be on the same page with your sales stements. Literally, again, it's literally the deaf finitition getting boiled down to it's a focus marketing and sales approach. Yeah, that's a great overview and I think, like you said, in Layman's terms right, because I think a lot of people here about ABM. You know, it's described to them and they some people will just say, wasn't that just sales, and will no, not exactly. It's you know, we're talking about creating focus here, about marketing and sales sort of working together. Right, yeah, it does. I mean you can go and if you want to go advanced wreck just for two minutes. Yes, you can actually have intend data. So imagine this perfect wall, and that's happening for a lot of advanced companies. Everybody wants to like just uplevel their thoughts. Forget everybody, everything that you're doing, but just up level thing that you're here watching a movie and it's a D movie, so put on your glasses and here we go. So imagine what what's happening with like some of the top companies that are doing this is something like this. They have a list of target accounts and that's probably like a thousand or one thus fifteen hundred. They look at intent data that allows them to see which of these thou five hundred accounts are actually looking for stuff that you are selling without using your company's name, and then they are able to say, Oh, out of one Thousan five hundred, these hundred accounts are actually starting to look for stuff. So they're in the very early stages of their identifying a need in their company. Why not activate our sales team and marketing team to go after those accounts? And I imagine that like put that on a rocket fuel and see if you can do that for every business. And that's what's really happening. At that point, five years from now, will happen where every organization will get try to get ahead as a competive advantage in the hearts and minds of the people that trying to sell, not when they are ready to buy, because at that time they've already have made their decision. And now you, you become one of the things that they have to check the box of the financial team that they have looked at three different vendors. You don't want that. That's too late.

You want to get in early and higher in the organization. I think that's where a lot of this intend data and more of that higher level information is super valuable. But I'll tell you, Joe, since ninety nine percent of the organizations and not doing it, I think almost every person listening to this as a competitive advantage because in your industry this intend data maybe such a foreign constant you don't even have to go there. You may literally, if you would probably be crushing your quotas for the year by literally making sure that sales and marketing agree on a set of accounts and marketing has programs, not for everything else out there, but for those accounts that you need to close this month, this quarter, this year. Yep, I totally agree. It's beyond what a lot of companies in this manufacturing space or even thinking about. Can you talk a little bit more about intent data and sort of, you know, make that a little more concrete for some of the listeners, like what exactly we talking about with intent data? Where's that come from? Yeah, so it's so there's a lot of different data provides us out there. Bambara is one of the foremost. Provided that we botter up at a terminus and love of a thousand plus customers use. It's literally gives you information about so let's say you're manufacturing company. You are actually selling some of the manufacturing tools and supplies to, let's say home bepat. Let just take that as an example. Okay, and now that's what you want to do. Is One that's one of your account is home people that you know you can serve them better. It's great, but you don't know when home people is going to be looking for it. You you can have your sales up, go after and call them up, but if they have a thousand people but list you don't know, but you want to call it Adam in the morning, you just don't take the priority for sales team. Is Justices exist. So you imagine if you could literally identify home people, Somebody over there is starting to search some of the keywords. That's like the deep one level of the people there's that. Let's say they start looking for manufacturing supply chain oriented things that aligns with your industry. You can buy those keywords from somebody like Bambara and say if anybody searches on these keywords that are related to my industry and my product services, even though it does not say the name of my company. I want to know that. So what they would do is like, every time somebody from those companies that you are interested in are looking for those keywords anywhere online, not on your website, with anywhere in the wild, it will alert your organization and your sales team. Now that does clue. You can see where it goes from there. Right like now, all of a sudden, your sales team and your marketing team, if you're really looking to take you to the next level, is Gosh, we got the list. You won't just have your sales team call. You will say, marketing, let's actually run some campaign leds just to direct me on with this account, because this is one of our top accounts and they are obviously interested in this topic. Let us be the first one to break into this account and show them that we care and show them that are interested. You can create landing pages specifically designed for your company, named home deeper and drive people from there to your landing page. So the level of sophistication can just keep...

...going up, depending upon the size of the deal that you're run to self. But that information, dude, right now, is readily available compared to like five years ago, when I started talking about ABN, inten data wasn't nowhere to be found, like nobody really understood what inten data was even. But right now, with all the cookie tracking, Ip tracking, keyboard tracking, this information is available. The question is, are you going to take the next level of interested? Does that matter to you? Or we can go through the MQL, the ESK ql, the essay out and all these different layers. We you qualify people because our account because you don't have those accounts. So the right but in account based there is no qualification, there is no handoff. It's like home deeper is on the website. Boom, we need to start calling them because there there. There's no qualification the process. You really save so much time and energy if you really do it right. I mean what a great way to be able to Chan the time and energy of your team, as so many people are out there on the sales front just like kind of flying blind right. Their Account List is an account list that's just based on, you know, characteristics, firmographic characterists, this size company in this part of the country with you know this. Many people are this much revenue, but they don't know who's buying and you know they don't know what activity people are from those organizations are doing online to gather information during their sales or the buying process. Right. So it makes a ton of sense to how you know, to be able to help enable your sales seeing by channeling their energy into the right places where they're going to have much higher success rights. Right. Yeah, and I think what's really fascinating, Joe, I have seen people, marketers, get promoted. I've seen marketers becomes ems in their organization. I've seen people getting lock more bonuses, like I really have che seen. I remember Daniel Day, who was one of our customers. Then he would have snowflake and I moved other company. I think he's still a customer part of it. It smells like. I don't remember when he came in. He said to me we do this all hymns thing where we have a customer coming to the office every single month, like come in and now we do it word truly, obviously, but we have been doing that for over a year. It's probably the best marketing program I've ever run. Is Not anything else but have a customer coming the office and share what's going on. How what matters to them, about them. So everybody in the organization, those who we're doing this for. So I didn't remember Daniel Day coming in and saying, you guys have changed my life. And we're like, come on, we're not, like we're not in the business of like saving lives, we're not. Like. He's like no, no, you don't understand. which you guys are done. And this like early, like at two thousand and eighteen. Yeah, early two thousand and nineteen maybe. And he's like, well, look, I know. I can walk into my CFO's room, I can walk into my CEO's room, I can walk into my cmos room and tell them exactly how what I do drives business. I can tell them of all the pipeline that they look at every single quarter to say are we going to meet our numbers or not?...

That's every company's challenge every quarter. You're looking at it, you know, as a found you know you're looking at like are we going to reave the number or not, like you're looking at it like a hawk. He's like, I can tell very clearly, within a ballpark of few percentage points, which of these accounts we're going to close and which we have absolutely no chances. Just bullish salesperson saying that. They go in and the reason he can do that is because he can go and say to them like hello, we think we're going to close all of these fifty accounts. Right, let me tell you, out of these fifty accounts, only ten accounts are spend any time on our website. So the chances of the rest forty closing is slim to none. That maybe like I don't know what they're doing, but the only desten accounts that are more than three people from that company's spending time on our website. So I feel very good putting a pipeline number to say that these ten should be part for forecast, not the forty. Forty S gravy. If that happens, and he said none. Often Times I'm literally disclosed to helping our sales team forecast the right number. Now, Joe, think about the power as a marketer you have to actually help your organization forecast where the revenue numbers are going to be. So powerful. Well, Sangram, your most recent book, ABM is bb came out what a late last year, was it? Yeah, okay, yeah, I owned it within a few days of it going live and had read it a few days later, I think, in two sittings or shows. A fantastic book and I'd encourage every here to pick it up. But there's so many quotable lines from your book, but one that I had highlighted that I think really summed it up for me was this that you wrote. Not all accounts are equal in value, so why are you creating equal experiences for them? It's okay to play favorites, in fact it's necessary. Assigning tears is the fairest way to make sure that you design experiences that reflect what each account is worth. Your top tier gets wined and dined, your bottom tier gets bright and take out. I thought that was so great because it it just touches on this. I mean you said it like not every account is equal, yet we're treating them all the same. We're not looking at things you've talked about, like intent, etcetera. So you can go unpack this idea a little bit more about account tears. Yeah, absolutely, Joe, and thank you. And it's one of my favorite quotes too, because, and just so you know, like, and I'm very open about like writing book and stuff. He look, I'm running a company and so I'm not writing every single word in it, but majority of my content came from the podcast that we are doing. This is a really cool and I literally hired a comedian to help me write a book and I'm very open to that because that's hot. And it said, here's all of my content, but I don't want to be boring, to boring. I wanted to be better, do better. So help me make this better. So I would put in front of him like all right, I want to write about this concept of like you have to treat accounts differently and like that sounds so boring, like can you help me? And he came up with that idea of like hey, you know what, what if you know it's so he made it sound so much better. So I'm very open and share people like look, I'm no problem getting and taking help, and so should everybody take help that you need it. And that example... really the Crox of the entire account is marketing idea. If your news letter that you write goes to everyone, if your Webinar goes to everyone, if your podcast goes to everyone, then everybody's the same, and if everybody is the same, then you're watering down the level experience that you should be creating for your top your account. So the way, when we fly Delta Miles, like you know, you want a different tiers, you can get in early and get a seat and all those kind of things. Like the turing is in. BBC understands this really well. For whatever reason in me to be we don't consider experiences based on the size of the deal, the type of the deal, the length of the deal, and that makes everybody look the same. And here's the biggest challenge. Your million dollar deal that you're going to close an a fiftyzerollar deal, and I will encourage everybody has a challenge to go back and look at your biggest deal and your smallest deal and look at the experiences you're providing them today. Maybe do a chart and just write it down and see and if you are ninety nine percent of the things, if not hundred or the same, you got lucky, is the only thing I would say. Or your overspending on your small accounts. You don't have to or you're actually not spending enough to close those deals more of the bigger deals. And so an example of that would be like, like we have done recently, we do webinars like everybody else, but now we have started to do webinars based on industry. So we would only get ten or twenty people. That's all we need. will put them together in the same industry and have conversation about how solve problems in that industry period. As opposed to trying to say, Hey, here's the top of the phone content for a convers marketing. You're saying no, here is let's bring together CMOS of manufacturing industry together and talk about that. It is such a different conversation. It is such more richer, deeper conversation. We're happenings. So you just start looking at we would do an Webin or just to get ideas out, but then we'll be webinart that are excell raiders for her, and in that case you're doing like five or ten people. I think people and companies are making huge mistake by treating all accounts the same. They're losing so much money because you competitor right now is whining and dining. Somebody is actually giving them really good takeouts or whatever they're trying to do for them, and if you're treating everybody the same, you're completely missing the opportunity that you have at hand. So I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah, well, you can see how it all fits together. You use things like intent data, paired with, you know, the information you might already have about an account, to make smart decisions about where you're going to have more success. And then to the broader audience, you there are things you'll do. You know that your content will play a role there and your newsletter and stuff. But then you know, as you look inside that smaller group that is the right fit and they're showing signs that you know they're in the buying process, then...

...those are the ones where you can deploy more of your time and energy to right and it changes the game. It change is the game like. I'll give you another example of them to real quick and I share about but this one it's in the book. You might remember Romata Promata. They are probably fits more into the sweet spot of the customers that you probably have and the people who are listening to it. The only needed hundred of deals to close in like next two to five years. Like they don't need a thousand because every deal is at least a million and it can go up to like tendin or something like that. So really, really big deals. So they didn't care about number of leads, they didn't care about traffic and stuff. But when they started a CONTAS programs, they're traffic dropped by seventy percent. Now anybody who's thinking like marketing is like, well, if the traffic drops, you're not to get marketer like, what's wrong with you? But their pipeline and revenue is going up. So they looked into like what happened and what they identified was because they were so targeted on their list of accounts they were going after, they were only advertising and engaging with these hundred accounts that they had identified as their total addressible market. And as soon as they did that, everything was to them and they didn't do anything else. That's all they focused down. They actually went from twenty two different technologies to six to do everything they needed. So their cost of acquisition overall dropped by about sixty two percent just by that. So when they started to do that, the traffic automatically dropped, but it was coming from the right places. So that's the questions that we all have to ask them. Vanity metrics. That is one of the other things that I kind of jumped in the book for, as you might remember, is that I think you're measuring too many false positives and manity metrics. I used to menasure website traffic going up. Is Great. Now I ask the question. So what I used to look at? Number of downloads are great now, as ask the question. So what are they the right people? Are they from the right tears? Are they the people that we want more of? If not, we actually figured out how to waste our money. Such a right point. I love that so much and it's a concept I've talked about with clients. To you articulated that much better than I ever would have. But you know, and like you see the same sort of thing happening when you're repositioning your business like guerrilla. We moved from being more of a generalist firm into serving the industrial sector seven or eight years ago and we've honed that more and more. And I was talking about how every time we howned more and more are traffic dipped more and more and then it would pop back up. You know a bit, but the quality of leads that were being generated on our site, the people who are appearing on our site, we're becoming higher and higher because our message was so focused. And it's sort of a similar thing going on here. When you're running a BM right, like the volume is misleading and if and if you're looking at those metrics alone, you'll probably fire your marketer because those vanity metrics, as you calm are, are going in the wrong direction. But it doesn't matter. Look at the revenue. Look at new customers. Are they the right customers? You know, is your pipeline growing right? So I think that's a really great point. Yeah, man, I hope more companies taking...

...note on that. Yeah, that's great. So something I've observed online. I you can maybe validate this or speak to you know, to it from another perspective, but I a lot of the content you find if you're looking for ABM or a companies marketing information or examples of it, like almost everything I find is with either huge enterprize organizations or software companies, and I've found it a little difficult to find like we develop our methodology with our clients for doing a PM with midsize be be manufacturers. I'm talking about companies that do ten million to a hundred million a year in sales and some of their customers are enterprise, others are smaller. But how do you think like Abian methodology can be applied to more, you know, small, the midsize businesses? Do you think anything changes or is it kind of the same thing? It's a really good question job, because I think Abian is not for everybody and it goes back to like recognizing who your customers are is so important. So I think people who think that we can sell to everybody that that's just not true. I used to think that, I is. When we started terminus. We said, well, we can sell everybody. Our market gap or market size has, you know, five billion, like it was just nothing but ego and broad it would wasn't anything real in sense real. The reality is that five years later we are a thousand customers right now, right so the market says that they got into grows faster. So I think we have to get real with ourselves. You have to look back in the minner and say what is truly our customer size and what I've seen that on an average, if your deal sizes is about K and if you have more than three people, do for people out of the decision making process and if your sale sacket is longer than six months, I think abim is a perfect fit for you. Anything lower than that I think you start compromising in areas like, well, how much time and energy, because you would not have the time to do if you're doing transaction business. An example, or another example would be like, you know, if if you've got a big company selling to really, really small deals like, you know, a hundred bucks, two hundred bucks subscription or a thousand books subscription, it is not a good fit for you because that will date too much of her time and to transaction the business. You better off getting a brand oriented conversations in the marketplace and bringing people together on it. As opposed to that, you could actually be at ten people agency, but if your deal size is are over fifty gay, hundred gay abys, perfect for you. Why wouldn't you do that? Because now you have to be very personalized prescriptive around how you're going to reach out to it. So it really depends on who your customers customers are in some ways, and the size of the deal, the number of people are involved in decision making process and also the length of those deals. Yeah, that's a great answer. And so it's less about you and your company and more about the types of deals and the size of deals you're making with your customers. That that it makes perfect sense. Like there's a lot of the companies that we can solve are what you described. There are an equipment manufacture and they sell a, you know, piece of equipment that's six HUNDREDZERO dollars or...

...two million dollars and you know, there's a six to twelve month bicycle and they're talking to you know, engineers and plant managers and procurement and the sea suite and they're all these different people on the buyers and who are influence the sale somewhere along the way. And and those are the situations typically where we say there needs to be an account based component here, because it's worth investing in that sale the time and energy of your people. Right. Yeah, it really is super critical because that's where you actually might be seeing if you are an organization listening to this right now and thinking that, well, I have a different goal for my sales and marketing team and you have a lead problem. We don't have a wind rate. It may be may be having wind rate issues. The real issue that you really have, in my opinion, just looking at is not a demand problem. It's actually a pipeline and velocity problem. And that happens because those deals that you already identify the accounts with are not moving fast enough. So you need to kind of figure out what's wrong with that. And we keep going back to the marketing team say hey, pumping more leads, pumping more in bound pumping. It's like I would literally guarantee like, because we are lifted in the middle of the year right now, organizations can stop having any more lead generation whatsoever right now and focus on pipeline and expansion programs. They will hit their number. As a matter of fact, will crush their numbers for the rest of the year if they made their overall budget for net new demand zero, like, don't get any more net new. Whatever is, you know, pipeline and closed. Try to close them, or whatever is in your expansion do is try to close them. And whatever it comes to about is great. That's gravy. They will crush their duta because they will be less distracted, it will be more focused and they were drive them and starts great. Summary. Love that. So where do you see abim headed? You know the software is changing so fast, I mean your own software, but also the things you've described, the way it intented is becoming more available to us. Like where do you see things going in the next few years? Well, I mean I already wrote the sequel on ABM, like ABM and then Abim is b because I'm already washing my hands on the fact that Hella, I thought even is the future, but reality the second book, I mean he care, but Ibim is actually BEDB. So two years, five years from now, IBI may not even exist. It's just better marketing. So what I think is opportunity for all of us is this this idea that I shared earlier, and maybe that's what all right. Next is like BBB is not boring to boring, it's better to better, and I think there is an opportunity for all BB companies, manufacturing or anything, is that we have an opportunity create really better experiences for our customers. And I think what most companies are doing, if you really look at it, we're grunting boring experiences for our customers and their reality is that we look at it and see it and we expect that. That's the problem. We haven't raised the bar on experiences. So I feel like it's almost a new movement that I feel or sense coming is going from like you know what, so what? I'm a manufacturing company. Still See, you know, manufacturing equipment company, show selling whatever I'm selling.

It's why? Or create campaigns that are like you're sending hardy Davidson right, like like make it feel so real, so genuine, so personal. Then you actually move people to purchase, move people emotionally to make them think that hey, I want that. And I think that transition really hasn't happened in B Tob. So my thesis is like we're probably going to go through a renaissund spirit of like all right, the boarding to boarding is off and now everybody's got to be creative and create more better to better experiences. Great Answer. What's on the horizon for you? Sang them well. For me, I'm a man doing so many different things right. The podcast companies doing good. I do. I started a I think I share with you, maybe on a separate now. I started a private marketing group and I'm sure, yeah, remember yea like to me that's like my plate Noun right now. Joe Right, to test ideas, to see what's going on, give other people boys. That me not feel comfortable being in the outside world and give a voice and videos and stuff like that. I want to see more marketers become CMOS in the future. I think most markets don't really know what it takes to become that. But for me, my heart right now really is focused on building another community where people are actually hungry to be better marketers and I want to see that happened with their lives and their work self. Communities. We're at it. So if anybody wants to join, they can hit you or me, because you know it's all in my only so that you really cool. Exactly, there's some really cool stuff happening. They are already and I like your tagline is something like it's all about getting one percent better, right, just continuously getting one percent better at market. So, in like man, I think it's you. There's a compounding effect of that. I didn't never understood until it started to become that, when you're intentional about it, that every week I gotta get one person better. I don't know what it is and how it is, but when you take an audit and say, Hey, I got one person better, it's not daunting for you to become like a thousand person better. Any any stretch. But we all can get one person better. But what's the beauty is that? Imagine if you get one person better truly every week, that's like fifty two percent better at the end of the year. So the compound impact of that is profoundly life changing. So yeah, that's that's the goal. That's all. You do. The survey every Thursday religiously. Are we getting one person better? Are you doing something? And there are the Matrix that allows you to think about like you can make a great connection and become a one person better because now you just learned about someone or something and that makes you better. Great, great concept. I'm excited to get a little more actively involved in it. Just joined a few weeks ago and it's very cool. Yeah, so well, this has been an amazing conversation. So many great nuggets in here, I know. I know our audience is going to get a ton of value on it. And so where's the best place for listeners to find you online or to learn more about terminus, to pick up a copy of a BIM is b to be all this this awesome stuff you're doing? Where would you send someone? Well, in two things. One, I would love people to send me a linkedin message if they got something out of it,... what did they learn from it? If there was something that just jumped at it. If you did, I'll send you a freak copy of my book. Hows that? That's awesome. Yeah, you better take them up on that. Yeah, yeah, let's take me up on it, like, I don't care how many people come to it, like, tell me one thing that really connected for you and also you would do more. I will do something with that and I'll just shoot you. Shoot you a copy, like no questions asked. Well, Hey, we don't even have to send you the Amazon that if you if you go that route. So that's that's a deal. Awesome. That's great. So check out SANGROM. Find them on Linkedin. See what terminus is doing. You look for his book, ABMSB Tob Peak Dot community is the community he's started for marketers. A lot of stuff you can take away from following Sangrom. So I just want to say thank you for doing this. It's been an awesome episode and thrilled you could be a part of it anytime, Joe, any time for you awesome, and this for the rest of you. I hope to catch you on the next episode of the Manufacturing Executive you've been listening to the manufacturing executive podcast. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you'd like to learn more about industrial marketing and sales strategy, you'll find an ever expanding collection of articles, videos, guides and tools specifically for B Tob Manufacturers at Gorilla Seventy sixcom learn thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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