The Manufacturing Executive
The Manufacturing Executive

Episode · 1 year ago

The NFL Draft, The NBA Draft and... The Manufacturing Skills Draft? w/ Dr. Jason Scales

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

You’ve probably heard about the infamous skills gap in manufacturing — a problem only made worse by the pandemic.

It has the potential to affect our lives in profound ways; even our national security is at stake.

And if we expect to solve it, we need to get creative — like, say, starting a nationally-televised Skills Draft?

That’s one of the creative solutions today’s guest, Dr. Jason Scales, Business Manager, Education at Lincoln Electric, proposes to avoid the coming skills depression.

In this episode, we discuss:

- Why COVID widened the skills gap

- What a Skills Draft is and why it could change the national culture around high-skilled employment

- What manufacturers should be doing to help today’s youth get excited for —and see a viable future in — the industry

To ensure that you never miss an episode of The Manufacturing Executive, subscribe on Apple Podcasts, or Spotify, or here.

All these youth, what they start doing is they start forming these ideas, I'm going to be that NBA Player, I'm gonna be that NFL player, and they set their sights on that goal. Right. Why can't we do the same with skilled trades? Why can't we bring industry together? Why can't we bring these students together say we're gonna HAVE A skills draft? Welcome to the manufacturing executive podcast, where we explore the strategies and experiences that are driving midsize manufacturers forward. Here you'll discover new insights from passionate manufacturing leaders who have compelling stories to share about their successes and struggles, and you'll learn from B tob sales and marketing experts about how to apply actionable business development strategies inside your business. Let's get into the show. Welcome to another episode of the Manufacturing Executive podcast. I'm Joe Sullivan, your host and a CO founder of the Industrial Marketing Agency Gorilla Seventy six. With the first pick of the one thousand nine hundred and ninety four NBA draft, the Milwaukee Bucks Select Glenn Robinson from Purdue University. There's a sound bite I vividly remember from my childhood, growing up as a huge sports fan in Wisconsin, and although big dog Glenn Robinson could have been Jason Kidd or Grant Hill and that number one spot, he did all right. For us, the NBA a draft may have been second only to Christmas as the best day of the year. As a kid, we and my best friend Dan Carey would do mock drafts for days leading up to it and we'd set up shop in one of our basements and then we'd watch the whole thing play out start to finish. So why am I telling you this? Because my guest today will pose the question for you. Why do we only do this in sports? As we educate and train the next generation of welders, machinists and so on, why not celebrate the launch of their careers, draw attention to their achievements and skills and make a big deal about it for all these young workers, their parents and the companies who,...

...frankly, need them now more than ever? Let's call it the skills draft. In this episode we're going to talk about educating the next generation of the manufacturing workforce and how to make the skilled trades more exciting to its future stars. So let's get into it. Dr Jason Scales is the business manager of Education for Lincoln Electric. He's responsible for strategic planning and the management of his company's education team and product portfolio. Dr Scales serves on a number of boards and it's participated in numerous speaking engagements, panels and bylined articles on the subject of the changing face of technical education and creating paths for addressing the current skills gap and manufacturing and construction. Before joining Lincoln Electric, Dr Skills Served on the staff at the University of Central Missouri as an associate professor of egg your culture. Following a career in agricultural education, he earned his doctor of philosophy in agricultural education at the University of Missouri. Jason, welcome to the show. Well, thanks for having us, Joe he bat. Well, Jason, let's get right into it. If I'm not mistaken, I think you told me that Lincoln Electric has the longest running welding school in the world and I'd love to hear you talk about the history of the program how it's evolved and especially in recent years since you've been there. Absolutely and thanks for having us on today. It's a pleasure to talk about this and and really talk about the skills gap and what's going on with currentical education and how we're going to address this thing. And you know, with our us, our journey started in one thousand nine hundred and seventeen and are with our welding school. And interesting was, if you remember, in nineteen seventeen from history, there's a little thing going on called World War One and the US army needed a way to figure out, how can I get and repair equipment that may be damage during the war efforts, get them back in and so on, and they basically called on Lincoln Electric and said, can you help us in training our infantry men or are a group of soldiers in welding? We think we...

...can use welding the assist us in the war efforts and everything. And so that's really where we started our welding school and it was so successful we just left it running all the way since then and we've always been engaged in this notion of welding education because, you know, as we started and started in the welding industry, we needed to educate people on that. We needed to bring that to the forefront and really make it a viable solution for joining materials. How are you going to build the skyscrapers? How are you going to build the tanks? How are you going to build the ships and the boats? Because we may have been riveting at that time, and so you're transforming that with a new technology of welding. And then, as it's evolved, we use our welding school not only to train new welders, but even today it becomes our research and Development Facility for how are we going to strengthen welding education both domestically and internationally? What new curricula do we need? What new tools do we need? How we engage dudents in the welding booth, in the classroom? So it really is one of those dynamic things that, as we look at it, it will continue to evolve, but is core to our mission here at Lincoln Electric. That's cool. What's change, you know, especially in recent years? I just think of all the technology that's found its way into, I mean, every facet of our lives and then what happened in the world, you know, to the last sixteen months or so? I'm just curious what's changed and in terms of welding education, if anything right. I mean you think welding. Right, you're just welding. What real technology do you need in welding? But do you think about industry? Four, oh, and what we're doing with data, data acquisition, data controls, computers integrating into welding equipment to where we can control that welding process to the infinite degree. But when you think about education, how do I use virtual assimilation? How do I use these technologies in the welding booth? Because we need to develop that welder faster and I need to develop more proficiencies in that welder. And interesting just hot off the press, we did a...

...study with case date and Wsu tech out in Kansas and one of the interesting things when we introduced technology like our VERTEX simulator into welding education, we not only make a better welder and and able to train them faster, but we found that we actually develop a new level of confidence in that individual to where they almost feel like I'm the Superman and superwoman of welding and and I'm going to go out and get the best job I can. And they had such a high placement of those individuals that were in that that study with Vertex it was very surprising. Not to me or others in that are close to it, but that level confidence to give that young person, that new person naring the workforce. It was just an incredible thing to see happen. It's really cool. You're, of course, in this welding corner of the manufacturing world, but I've talked to a number of people on this podcast over the last few months that are really hitting this, this topic of skilled labor gap from a number of angles and, you know, I had Matt Goosey, who is up in Wisconsin and he's help helping run an organization called Cardinal Manufacturing, which is a essentially a machine shop run inside the walls of a high school where they've got high school kids the learning to be machinists as part of their school curriculum, alongside math and science. And Drew Crow or Andrew Crow on recently as well, talking about, you know, getting young people involved and excited about manufacturing and as an, you know, alternative to those who are feel the pressure to go to college when college may not be right for them, or people who are working at, you know, frankly, working at McDonald's and there's opportunities to go, you know, learn how to be a machinist or maybe, in your case, a welder, and think there's just it's becoming very clear to me that there is a sort of gap in the way that the opportunities in all corners of manufacturing are being communicated to really the next generation. So just kind of curious to hear your take on that,...

...if you agree, if you're seeing kind of the same thing you know I do. And if you think about manufacturing like we at linkoln electric are manufacturing center is bright, it's well lit, it's clean, we use technology during the manufacturing phase and a lot of people don't realize that. They still have images of the old, dirty, smoky, you know, gringy manufacturing site to where you know they're just sweating and just trying to crank out parts, and that's just not really what it looks like anymore today. And the opportunities that are out there, it just is incredible and I told my kids all the time if I knew then what I know today and I was eighteen, what I be doctor scale sitting in this chair? I don't know. I really don't know, because the opportunities are out there and manufacturing and in the skilled trades and let me think about being a plumber. The lack of plumbers today is so significant. But you know, think about what happened over the last eighteen months. We have now four academic terms that have been that we're disrupted by Covid so the ability to certify New People to enter in the workforce. You know when you had all these people laid off and the hospitality industry went down, and now you have all these different income a workers and they're they're trying to get back in the workplace but they may not have the right skills to get a manufacturing so it's almost like we have not only do we have a skills gap, we have a mismatch of skills because the income at workforce may have had a different line of work. Now they have to shift to get into a another new line of work right and so it's going to be up to us to figure out how do we fast track short term credentials or get those stackable credentials, certificates, whatever we need to do to get those people cross train, to get them employable faster. And you know that skills gap that we talked about five years ago and people really couldn't point to it. They couldn't say this is why this is going on, we think, for not motivating kids to get in it. COVID is a tangible point that we can now point to say we got we truly have a skills get. We truly have a challenge in front of us and we've got to figure...

...out how to get this thing, how to get US solved. Yeah, for sure. I mean it's for all the kind of just shed lighted, sort of amplified. You know, the issue, put light on it, gave you something tangible to point to, right it. But it's so pervasive today. We work with a program called project manufacturing. It's actually sponsored by the Department of Defense, and the reason there's sponsoring this it's almost that the lack of skilled workforce is almost a national security risk. And so you know, the Department of Defense is funding this project and link in electric and hosts manufacturing. See and see your part of this. And we put on these contests all around the United States to try and promote these trades to youth, to make it more exciting, because you know, who's going to build the ships tomorrow? If I don't have welder's who's going to build the aircraft? More if I don't have well be at a drone or a human flight type aircraft. You know, those things are tangible and we need there's a lot of people interest in this. With Nay of Nasal Association of manufacturers. We were just on the phone with them yesterday's highly interesting in how are we going to get not only today's work force, but what about the alternative workforce? So what about attracting women into manufacturing and really bringing them into the fold of manufacturing? What are we going to do with incarcerated people that we're getting rehabilitated that now can be active in the workforce, actually have a meaningful life and get a substance of living and and not worried about not going back to their old ways? How do we look at these different areas of the workforce we may not have looked for in the past, but really get them involved, get them skilled up and make them a part of the solution that's going to bring us forward to solve this this gap that we have of that talent pipeline. Yeah, you bring up a really interesting point that you know, we need to look in different places right. It's not not the traditional places where maybe we've been looking for labor. I mean you named a few, few of them, and I think that's that mindset shift and thinking creatively about how...

...do we reach different audiences that could be a part of this workforce is going to be really important. Absolutely. I mean, you know, we're engaged all over the board. WE'RE ENGAGED WITH FA we're engaged with skills, with say, we're engaged with many of the job cord around the United States, we're engaged with many community colleges. But you know, American Welling Society says we need three hundred thousand welders, by two thousand and twenty five to fill this gap that we have. Right. Is it really possible for public education to produce three hundred thousand welders to fill the needs by two thousand and twenty five? I would argue probably not. So where's that extra workforce going to come from? And it's going to come from all these alternative populations that we need a skill up and train. And that Skilling up and training is going to look different and I think you're going to start to see manufacturers really teaming up with the education agencies in their region at Community College, a career in text center, high school, private whatever. But you know, it's not only going to be public education that's a part of the solution. Manufacturers and people that need that workforce are also going to become part of that solution where they may have training in their own institution. They they may take a trained welder take on the rest of the way to make them theirs. They may need an electrician or maintenance person that can maintain all types of different equipment, plumbers. I think you're just going to start to see a shift where there's going to be some ownership on the employer's side and they're still going to be that education piece on the other side, and that may be done through apprenticeship programs, workforce development, all these different things, but I think we just got to start thinking outside the box and really looking in different areas and trying to find these little solutions. Yeah, well said, Jason. I've had a number of guests on this show come from the land of robotics and AI and automation industry for Point No, from, you know, all different angles. One guest I'm just sort of thinking of right now, this is a recent episode, was Andy Lawnsbury's the president of a company that's based in Columbus...

Ohio, called path robotics. There are super impressive autonomous welding robotics company, and so his companies attacking the skills gap from the standpoint of putting robots into places where traditionally humans have done the work because, frankly, their customers are finding that they can find the Labor right and I'm just kind of curious from your angle, like, what do you think the future of welding looks like in terms of human versus robot implementation or whatever word I should be using their right. I guess it kind of goes back to you remember when Excel came out, when Microsoft Excel came out of a while back, we thought, well, all the accounts are done, now we have excel, so accounting's done. Well, accounting didn't go away and excel didn't expire out the accountants. What happened was extel became a tool to use, a new skill set was born and an accountant may look a little different right. So I don't I don't think robots or automations really going to displace workers. I think it may change the landscape of the workforce. I think skills may shift. But if you think about welding. Automation makes sense when it's a highly repetitive multipiece. I need to do it over and over and over and over again that it makes sense. But that may be in the automotive space and in manufacturing. That maybe where I'm building, you know, Poles to hold down telephone poles and I got a weld on a spiral jig onto this and it's highly repetitive. An automation makes a lot of sense, but it didn't displace that welder. That welder still has to operate that cell. The welder still has to do different things, a monitor those situations. So the skill set change and you know that myth of that if we if we automate, we're displacing workers. We're not displacing workers. Were shifting the skills needed in the work worse of that time. And a lot of these industries like welding, you may see robotics or automation come into one sector of it, but there are...

...so many industry segments in welding that we're always going to need that skilled welder that can really go in, dial it in and weld with their hands and make that product and make it happen that's not going to go away, and so I don't see that automations a threat. Actually I think it's a very good thing and it's just going to enhance the skills or we're gonna have to kind of mend a little bit. But I really find it a pose. Yeah, goold take. I think I'm hearing mostly the same as far as automations concerned, and it's funny it's like this. I think there's a perception among the general public that wrote the robots are going to take our jobs and, as we all know, right now it's we need somebody to fill the jobs and if anything, robotics is helping the situation. But yeah, I was kind of curious to get your take on it. Yeah, you know, you introduced when we talked week or two ago and preparation for this conversation you're interested really interesting idea, which was the skills draft, and rather than me trying to explain what I think you had in mind, they're going to let you put on the Mel Kuyper Hat, you know, on PN and talk about what what's the skills draft? But in the context of manufacturing or welding specifically, I got to be care circle because somebody, somebody's going to take me up on this and say we're going to we're going to make this happen scales. Let's go make an APP. Yeah, well, hopefully they do all right. But in essence, you know, we part of with a group called National Coalition of Certification Centers, and there's other groups that do similar things like this, and ncthree really institute. Is something called a national signing day. So when high school students go to college and they play sports for college, there's usually a signing day at that high school where the students signing a letter intent. It's a big celebration. The student gets A, you know, a scholarship. They're going to go play football, Lacrosse or basketball and you're going to get financial assistance to go do that at that institution. It's going to help them get a leg up on their education. It's can be a great thing, right. So that's all wrapped around sports.

Well, the concept is, why don't we do that around the skilled trades? So now here's somebody actually signing a letter intent. Their mom and dad are there, the grandma and GRANDPA's or families there. They put a ball cap on on, they take a picture. They have somebody announcing this thing over the Internet. It's streaming live. Family members can watch it and it's so powerful that when a school puts them on, they may think, well, we'll have seventy five people show up. I had one school that had to double the diesel program because so many people showed over that national signing day. It was over four hundred individual science showed up for that day. Now this is being streamed over the Internet. Everybody's there. You guys, speakers are calling out their name. Hey, Joe Soliman, just sign that letter evnted. He's going to this community college, he's going to get that degree in computer aided drafting, he's going to be a champion out there in the field and by Golly, thank you joe for coming today. And they're taking pictures and you know, it's a big thing, right. What we do that in sports we had these signing days and sports we make a big thing out of it. Well, then we have this huge draft at the end of the school year. We call the NFL draft, the NBA draft and so on, and we celebrate the top athletes that are going on to professional athletics and they're going to be in the NBA of the NFL. We don't really talk about the dollars are going to make. Me All assume what they're going to make. But we celebrate that. And and there's, you know, millions of people watching this on TV. And so all these youth what they start doing is they start forming these ideas, I'm going to be that NBA player, I'm going to be that NFL player, and they set their sights on that goal. Right. Why can't we do the same with skilled trades? Why can't we bring industry together? Why can't we bring these students together and say we're going to have a skills draft and here we got all these students. They're going to apply and they're going to interview there the best of the best. Right, and how awesome would it be that now we're announcing out there the skills draft and here's company a and they're going to pay thirtyzero dollars to get the number one draft pick for the welder. They value...

...this person so much they're going to pay a thirtyzero for the number one draft pick. All Moneys go back to the program from which the student comes, and that's how we're going to get people excited about skills. That's how we're going to get people excited about skilled trades. Wouldn't you like to be the family member of the MOM and dad that your son or daughter just got picked for the number one draft? I don't care if the computer at a drafting, nursing, occupational therapy, welding building traits what it is, but if we really want to excite the public and really bring some momentum to what we can do with getting skilled trades going, we've got to make it exciting, we've got to make it relevant and we've got to get people to understand that these are true jobs that are very well paying jobs. Their high wage, high skill, and let's reward these people for being the top, and I think it'd be a cool thing to happen. That's one of the coolest ideas I've heard a long time, honestly, and it's one of my favorite things I've heard some we talked about on this show. I can't wait to get some more eyeballs on on this ears, I should say I guess on on this concept, because I hope somebody does take you up on I think it's so cool. I just think about all you know I'm a creative guy. Come from a run a marketing agency. I came from a design background before I did this, and I'm thinking of like how you could make a production out of this and make it something really special. That would it would be fun, it would be meaningful to the kids, to the parents, to the organizations and do so much pride involved in it. So love it. Well, I mean we here this welding school. We've never really had a graduation for our comprehensive program. Four years ago I said, look, we need to have a graduation. It's a sixteen week program, but we need to have a graduation. And you know how much pride that these parents, husband's, wives, kids take for somebody committing to a program, finishing the program and being a recognized for that. Ever, and you don't realize that what that really is until you have a commencement and and you witness it. I mean we've all been to high school graduations. We've all been to college...

...graduate not maybe not all, but but for for a family member that it could be the first time. So one of the so many of their family graduated from something after High School. They're the first generation and they know they're going to go on to success and go get a better job and they're going to make their lives better and they're going to move on. That's a great thing. And if we don't start celebrating this across the board and recognizing this with our people, what's the motivation for them to go do it? It's yeah, they always have the intrinsic motivation, but Mayn we can make it a whole lot better if we just did some small things. I think it's so smart. And just for the record, I was teered up when my daughter had her kindergarten graduation about two months ago. So, yeah, where that tear in your eye because you know it's about her to be over so you can be eighteen tomorrow. No, kidding, right, Oh man, no, it's such a great concept. I think it's it's so cool. So I love that we're putting this idea out there and I hope it spurs some ideas for people who are listening. Right. So, Jason, during the well holding corner of manufacturing, like what is speaking more generally, what do you think that manufacturing organizations, whether they're in some whether the fabricators, whether they're, you know, machine builders or whatever? It is, what do you think that other manufacturing organizations can do in their own niches on the education front, given what you've learned from your experiences doing this in welding at Lincoln? So I would say advocate nationally and act locally. That's what we need to do. There's programs out there that can really strengthen the creer technical education and education just in general. But it also we need manufacturers to get and become part of the conversation and part of the solution. If we don't get employers going back to the community colleges, the career centers on the high schools and acting locally, saying look, I will bring your students in and I'll show them what our workforce looks like, I'll give them a little taste of it, or we don't go sit on advisory boards and really challenge those...

...schools in a way that they can start producing the product that we want to hire. You know, just as a manufacturer produce as a product they want to sell to the public schools produce a product called a student. Then he's a graduate and become gainfully employed or go on to continue education. Right. So who is guiding that development of that product or that student and the best cases is going to be the people. They're going to hire them, the manufacturers, the industries. Then that local area and needs to higher them to be more productive, to bring in the technologies that will make the help them double the size of their company, to make the acquisitions they want to operate at a safer level. And so that's why I always say we need to advocate at a high state or national level, get engaged with that, but then act locally, become part of that solution and become part of that conversation, because for me, if I'm a manufacturer, I say I can't hire anybody. Nobody wants to come work for me. I hope, Joe, I hope you look right me, right back in the face and say, well, have you walked over to the school and and talk to them? Have you an open your doors and invited those students to come in and see what you do and how cool the things that though your people get to do every day could change their lives and what they could do with it? And if I tell you know, then it's my fault, it's not school's fault. And so I think the conversation goes both ways. Yeah, I agree, Jason. Is there anything you want to touch on here that I didn't ask you about? No, I think when we think about manufacturing, we think about moving forward, we're going to be challenged for many years to come. Now we're going to be challenged on finding the right talent. We're going to be challenged on finding the right population that we can hire in a manufacturing and I think those alternative populations that we have out there we need to get active in that. We need to get and go out there and do that. And you know, I'll be I'll be honest. I'm pretty conservative and I really love that six am to ten PM job. I really don't. But you know, a lot of a lot of Mus work that right. or we really punch that clock from eight hundred and twenty five. And I...

...think if we're going to tap into these alternative populations, I think we're going to have to look at our work environmental work schedules. I think that's something else covid has taught us. You know it, does it really matter somebody comes in at zero am or nine am? I'm I read a story a long time ago and I can't tell you the manufacturer's name but you know, they went out to some mothers and mom's and said, why don't you want to come work for me? They said, well, it's pretty important for me to watch my Kiddo get on the bus and it's pretty important for me to watch my Kiddo get off the bus. They said, fine, what if we could fix that? What if we could create a work shift for you? That would fix that and you we meet your goals and we can help increase our productivity. Fine, let's do it. And actually they became more productive than the men in the field and it worked. So I think, you know, as I'm pretty conservative and I'm pretty I like routine and I like, you know, thinking old school, but I really do believe, and it challenges me to is to think alternatively about what does it mean to have a highly engaged, highly skilled, highly productive workforce and how am I going to meet their needs moving forward? What did covid teach us from this and and what lessons can we take? Not It's not going to work for every manufacturer's not going to work for every office area, but I do think there's some lessons there and to attract these different populations, I think we're going to have to consider that. Well, I think you brought up a really great point, which is asked the people that you're trying to reach. What do they want like? What what would make this more appealing to them? And I think that's a perfect example of it that you gave one. When I was talking, I mentioned drew crow, who was my interviewee recently on this show, and he was talking about it from the standpoint of what is the young workforce want, and the example he used was, well, they used to get these these coins, i. Forgere what you hear, what you call them, like when they you know, when they complete some task or you know, it was like a reward. They did get these coins and traditionally it was something that the people really valued. Is something they...

...took pride and collecting these coins that were, you know, physical signs of achievement. And what he learned from talking to young people this is more in the machining space, but is that like these things are meaningless to them, that we need a place to live, we need housing, like you know, and so his whole concept was, well, can you offer some some housing to, you know, people who are the young workforce who is coming in at lower salaries and or lower pay and address the thing that they're actually asking for, because that's gonna be a lot, a lot more meaningful to them and it's going to help you recruit people. So I don't I think it's just like the lesson here is is yet being more flexible, listening to what people actually want, what would make the workplace more appealing to them, and sometimes it's the simple things, honestly. Well, it's amazing too. I tell schools all the time when they build there, you know, they talked about remodeling the welding program we got to do this and you know, while our famous saying is just back the dumpster up, because we're going to throw half of it out, then we're going to we're going to start paint the walls right. And the point is is that you have to make an environment that students want to be in. You would rather that this you wanted so good that the student wants to be in that welding program more than want to be in their own bit. And so if we can create a work environment where people truly want to be engaged at work, then I think there's a lot of things that we can do with that and attracting that workforce into our our manufacturing facilities, and that means painting the walls, putting up brighter lights, making sure they can see, making sure that they have the right tools to do their job, making sure they have the right training. I mean a lot of times just comes down to training as a person comfortable in doing that, doing that job, and so there's a lot of value in that and if we're going to tract that next level workforce, I think that's where it at. And and when I talk about engagement, I mean engagement is, to me, is just as much the person having a hundred percent attendance rate as a person that's begging to go get that promotion a and going and getting more skills and going to get more education. But I'm perfectly happy...

...that somebody also wants to live their life outside of the system and they're doing the job to go live their life and that's perfectly fine. Absolutely well, Jason, awesome conversation here. I really appreciate you doing this today. Absolutely enjoyed it is near and dear to my heart. I so then we talked about all the time here. Oh, I can tell, I mean, I can I can see sense the passion in your voice and just watching you talk about this. So I think it's really great your standard for something that is just so important right now, really more than ever. So love the conversation. Can you tell our audience how they can get in touch with you and also where they can learn more about what link in electrics doing, and particularly on the Education Front? Absolutely so. We can be found at Lincoln electriccom on the World Wide Web and then I can be reached at Jason Underscore scales at Lincoln electriccom. Beautiful. Well, Jason. Thanks again. Appreciate your time. Absolutely Joe. My pleasure to be a part of the PODCAST. Thank you. Awesome and as for the rest of you, I hope to catch you on the next episode of the Manufacturing Executive. You've been listening to the manufacturing executive podcast. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you'd like to learn more about industrial marketing and sales strategy, you'll find an ever expanding collection of articles, videos, guides and tools specifically for bdb manufacturers at gorilla seventy sixcom learn. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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