The Manufacturing Executive
The Manufacturing Executive

Episode · 7 months ago

Timeless Sales Principals and Fundamentals w/ Mike Weinberg

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

15 years ago, Mike Weinberg had a bold perspective on sales which was to stick with the fundamentals and don’t fall for the ‘shiny new toys.’

His bold perspective paid off as he now consults some of the largest sales teams across the globe on fundamentals that have stood the test of time.

On today's episode, I talk about sales strategy with Mike Weinberg, Consultant, Speaker and Author of three Amazon #1 Bestsellers.’

Here's what we discussed:

  • Sales discovery, learning, strategy and implementation for customers
  • Answering ‘What do the people you're trying to reach care about?’
  • Timeless principles in sales that remain true and new-age fundamentals

To ensure that you never miss an episode of The Manufacturing Executive, subscribe on Apple Podcasts, or Spotify, or here.

Be Weary of the online experts who havetoday's fix with today's hot button thing to tell you everything in salesand marketing is changed. You need today's cool ast tool, toy technique oryou're a dinosaur, that's a load of crap being perpetuated by people thathave an agenda and something thay're trying to sell. You welcome to the manufacturing executivepodcast, where we explore the strategies and experiences that aredriving midsize manufacturers forward here. You'll discover new insights frompassionate manufacturing leaders who have compelling stories to share abouttheir successes and struggles and youwill learn from Bto, be sales andmarketing experts about how to apply actionable business developmentstrategies inside your business. Let's get into the show, welcome to another episode of theManufacturing Executive Podcast, I'm Joe Sollivan your host and a cofounderof the Industrial Marketing Agency Gerilla. Seventy six cold calling is dead. Social selling isthe new thing, actually social sellings dead. What you need to do is accountbase marketing or maybe on second thought account base. Marketing isactually dead and what you need to do is get on to club house. The world of sales and marketing seemsto be a revolving door of buzzwords tools and technology, accompanied bydramatic claims by so called experts about what thing you need to be doingif you're going to survive out there, but as today's guest will tell you, thecommon thread among successful sales professionals isn't tied up in anypiece of software or tactical flavor of the day. What remains timeless ever green andessential are the fundamentals focusing on the right types of customersintentionally selecting target accounts, developing a deep understanding of whatmatters to the human beings inside of those organizations asking the rightquestions, creating value in the sales process leading the way to a solutionthat actually makes sense for the buyer. These core fundamentals of sellingnever went away, and regardless of your favorite tools and tactics, you'reunlikely to succeed. If you can't get those things right, I am super excitedto introduce today's guest because he's someone who gets this stuff he'swritten best selling books on these topics and influenced me, my agency andmy clients in significant ways over the years. So, on that note, let meintroduce Mike Wineberg Mike Winberg is a consultant sales, coach, speaker andauthor on a mission to simplify sales. The specialties are new businessdevelopment and sales management, and his passion is helping companies andsales people win more new sales for launching his own firm Mike was the topproducing salesperson in three companies. Forbes named Mike Top Sales,influencer and other publications list. Him Is the number one sales expert tofollow on twitter. Mice has spoken and consulted on five continents, and isthe author of three Amazon number one best sellers new sales simplified is aseven year best seller and has been named the number three most highlyrated sales book of all time. Mike second book sales management,simplified has been called, arguably the best book ever written on SalesManagement and named by ink magazine and hub spot. As the number one bookevery sales leader should read and his latest book sales truth became a numberone best seller. The first week at hit the market Mike is a native New Yorker.WHO's lived in Saint Louis for twenty five years. His three young adultchildren and has been told that his wife Katy, is still the best proof thathe can really sell Mike Welcome to the show, hey neighbor, thanks for havingme Joe, been looking forward to this for a long time. Absolutely you knowit's funny. I was in a client meeting like four years ago. Probably- and youknow I had your book up on screen- We were talking about doing positioningand I said you need to you an your team need to pick up copies of new salessimplified, and I want you to follow.

Mikesale story structure, and you knowthe guy on the other side of the table is like wait Mike Winberg hes myneighbor and I was like what and I didn't even know you were a sint LouisGuy Mike, and so that was a huge revelation for me and pretty cool tohear so it's fun. You know I've. I've been here almost thirty years and Ican't answer the SNT Louis Question right where 'd you go to high school,but my kids, can' and I've lost most of my jerk and most of my accent comingfrom New York, but they both come out occasionally so we'll see. Is We getinto talking about sales, AFD sales? Truth? If what if he gets some New Yorkaggression coming out of me today, awesome we we'll look for that yeah! Ihave the same thing: E, I'm thirty, eight and Ihave now spent half my lifein St Louis. I grew up in Milwaukee, but that's the big question in St Louisis: Where did you go to high school and it kind of places you on the map andand then people all judge, each other and everything based on that? But it's pathetic. Let's just Sai let' justsay it is to nonst Louis it's pathetic, so yep e, but it but it is true- and Iguess my kids will be doing doing the same someday so awesome. Well, Mike, Iread your first book new sales simplified all the way back in twothousand and fourteen. I went back into my I'm a kindle book guy and t n, so Iwent back into my AP and looked at when I purchased a newws sometime in Thosand,an fourteen which I think was a couple years after came out. That sounds aboutright. So many of the things resonate I was kind of on a sales book kickback.Then I was reading that I read. I read same sideselling by Ean Ultman and Jackcarrels and I remember reading the Challenger sale at the same time, but Ireally you know something about newsales simplifid really stood out tome and in particular chapter eight of your book. I talk about it all the timeand the title of that chapter is sharpening your sales story. Now yourbook is a salesbook. Obviously, as the title indicates, but as a huge advocateme being a marketing guy's, a huge addovocate for differentiatedpositioning, I don't think there's a better framework out there that doesthat helps you rigt positioning, then this chapter of your book, and so I wasjust wondering F, you could talk a little bit about what the sales storyis and why it's so important. Yeah. First O. Let me just say big! Thank you.Those are some super generous comments, especially coming from a marketingGouroo. So I'm really honored Chapter Eight is probably the most popularchapter in new sales simplified. It's one of my favorite topics. The salesstory are messaging and it's probably the thing I get asked most to speak ortrain about, and- and I get it because your sales story, your message, yourpitch, your value prop call. It call o what you want in the book. I use a termcalled the power statement where you're collecting a bunch of compellingtalking points whatever you call it your story. It is your most importantsales weapon because bits and pieces of your message end up in all of yourother sales weaponry. Your phone calls your voice, mails you're, linked inprofile, right power, point, slides, positioning statements when you'reopening a meeting. If you don't have a good store, you're, screwed andunfortunately, most sales people, don't they're boring their selffocused. Theyget handed a bunch of product or company centered marketing, gobly Gookfrom someone in the company that likes to write long flowery statements,that's about the company's history or it's proprietary processes or it'sculture, all wonderful things, but very few of those are going to are going towake up a prospect and get their attention or help decomoditize you orget different shated to get noticed. So that's why I'm so big on the story,aside from being more strategic and your targeting and aside from spendingmore time, selling, actually carving up more time when your calendar topractively sell, I don't think, there's a thing, a salesperson, a sales team, asales leader could do to increase sales and especially sales effectiveness.More than sharpening the message that it it's. Why it's such an importanttopic, yeah and the thing I love about the way you've structured it is amajority of it- is focused on the customer or the prospect. I should saytheir needs, their pains, the things they care about the challenges theyhave and a very small portion of it is focused on what you do to address thosethings and we followed your framework to at. We wrote a page on our site.That's just called who we help and how we followed your framework to a t, andI can't tell you how many times we...

...serve a very nich audience and in likemidsize BTB manufacturers, and they read this people read this and say youknow. I went down this list of you know people come to us when they'reexperiencing filln the blank and everything's like Yep, Yep, Yep, YepYep, and that's what resonates it's. You know what do the people you'retrying to reach care about because they care about themselves and what they'retrying to achieve yeah even the way you frame it? Is I love the way youarticulated better than I do? Even there there's a hope I have when you doa great jub structuring the early part of your story and what you're unpackinghere is in the framework of how I suggest crafting or message the veryfirst part, the most important part where the power comes from in our powerstatement is where we articulate the pains. We pains, we remove the problems,we solve the issues. We address the better results we achieve, they don'tAltu need to be negative. Some of them coald be framed in the positive aboutbetter outcomes, but all of those are customer issue. Customer outcomefocused so it's about them, because the truth is customers don't really carewhat we do. They want to know what we're going to do for them right. Sothe goal is were crafting the message, particularly if it's prospecting- andyou have ten seconds in a phone caller. You know whatever span of attention,you get someone reading a bullet point or two in your email or, as you said inyour case on your webpage. What I want that prospect, saying after they reador hear you for even a few seconds, is Huh. That's interesting! You helppeople like me and organizations like mine. I must know more from Mou likeyou are clearly credible, you're. Clearly an expert, you attack theproblems that I have and create the outcomes that I want. I'm going to putmy guard down to, let you tell me more and that's really the magic andunfortunately, if you look at most webpages for the typical company andyou go to the about a section, it starts with some bizarre boring companyhistory chronology that may be really important to the founder where theexecutives have started a company and there's some pride and it's all great.But do your clients really care about your company history? I mean it's anice touch and whether it's made in America. I do a lot of work with MACtrucks and John Deer and Herman Miller and big manufacturers that are reallyproud of manufacture stuff in America and a lot of their dealer. Sales forcesare longtime people right, they've been there for ever selling for decades.Working for dealerships that have been in business for a hundred years, so oneof their favorite things to say when they're, when they're selling is ohyeah, you know we're made o America and every you know our dealerships in itsfifth generation of family ownership and they're proud, and I get the prideand it sounds good. But if you're a guy run ing a fleet of trucks and you'restruggling with down time and trying to find drivers and desperate from morefuel economy. Hearing that your truck was made n America doesn't help meright. So that's Whyre, I'm going Hete. Why don't you pipit? You can get toMatean America and family health later, because that may that might bemeaningful. I'm not saying that's, not a potential differenttator, but youcan't lead with a different hater because it could be, it could betotally self focused or not sailing it. So, like I'm talking of the the truckpeople like what, if he's started, you story by saying Hey, you know whatwe're helping a lot of fleets who are struggling to find and keep gooddrivers and they're desperate to reduce downtime, because it's killing revenueand damaging customer relationships. Well, the truth is eighty percent oftruckfuly to have those issues. So if you're talking to a fleet manager who'syour prospect instead of saying we do this, we do that we in our fourtgeneration of ownership, my trucks made to America. Why did you say hey a lotof people like you, look to us when they're having trouble, findind driversand they've got ta reduce downtime, because you know they have those issuesand then all of a sudden, the dynamic changes right now, they're, notresisting no there's another sales person with the pitch you' like Hey,that's interesting y you're, helping people to have those challenges. I gotthose challenges. What can you do for me and then we're on a totallydifferent playing field? At that point? Yeah, I don't think you could have saidit better and regarding that you kind of hit on it, but regarding that we'vebeen in business for a hundred years message. That's the stuff people careabout once. They believe that you have seen the problems thayre experiencingor helped companies achieve the things...

...they're trying to achieve now. Theirears are open and they'll start vetting you, but you need to lead with thethings that matter to them right. That was perfectly stated. I love how youput that yether right you can. You can come back with the other pieces of yourstory to reinforce to differentate from competition to make them comfortable,but you can't engage with that. That's right because they don't care what youdo and how much you love your company or your product or how smart you are orhow long you've been in business unless you can help them so the order. It'sthe order that matters hundred percent agree well, Myk, shifting gears here,I'm going to quote you from newsales simplified. You said: Oh, I always getnervous. I ecause like yeah here you go. I write in extreme, so I'm always likewhat did I say and you rote it nine years ago too, butI imagine it's something you talk about frequently, but actually I'm Goinna,I'M gonna set this up real quick. So so one of one of my other favorite authorsand people, I follow he's more in the the world of marketing and sales forcreative in a agency people. I don't know if you know who Blair ends. Is Youwrote the wind without pitching manifesto, I'm a huge fan of him, buthe always talks about conversations instead of presentations, that's kindof one one of his he's key things he focuses on and you said somethingsimilar in new sales simplified. You wrote occasionally a prospect wilinvite you to come in and make a presentation and presentation is one ofthose words that makes my skin crawl, and I was rereading that section. Youknow just the other day when I was preparing for this interview with you,and I was just sort of I found myself vigorously nodding my head, because Iagree with it wholeheartedly. So I was wondering if you could unpack that forus yeah, let's go back to t where you started dialogue versus monologue, andI don't know how this happened. Maybe it's because at tech or tools or powerpoint or just what customers began to expect, because sales people got goodat doing the show up and throw up or spray and pray. But where is it writtenthat an important customer meeting? Even if we're near the end of the salecycle and we're supposed to be pitching and presenting? Where is it written?That's supposed to be a monologe, and then we should be standing at the endof some table or even worse today, with Covid and lockdown, where we're we'reon this Internet tool right looking into a camera, and is it just assumedthat we should be doing all the talking and not doing discovery and notdialoguing? So I hate the word presentation for about fifty reasonsand I articulate all those in chapter thirteen, but mostly because they tendto be premature. The focus tends to be wrong and they tend to be one way:Communication and they're, not as effective as they could be. I mean theone of the biggest things is, is premature when you go in because acustomer or prospect says hey we're shopping or why don't you come pitch usor you know, we've heard about you, come to a capabilities overview or giveus your dog and pony show even in your world right in the advertising. Rorldthat's the norm. Come give us the pitch, we're going to look for a new agency,so we show up and we puke kind of people, her here's all the stuff. We do.Here's our expertise, here's our talent! Let me show you all these cool sites.We built her, some here's, our creatives, here's our count managementprocess, but it's devoid of relevant content because you're guessing whatthe prospects issues are. Even if you've done research, you don't reallyknow exactly so part of my frustration is sales people that don't do gooddiscovery. They don't push back when the prospect ays hey, come in, comeinto your dog and pony show like we want to see your demo or whatever itmight be, so we go in and we do it and my argument is: If you go in andpresentation mode, there is no way you could be viewed as a value creator. Atrusted advisor a consultant because you're in pitchmode, so you're just avender pitching stuff, and if you don't take back control of your sales processand push back and say you know, I hear you here's what might work better. Ineed a couple meetings with these key stak holders or I need some more timeto understand where you're at and what your situation is in your current state,so that we, when we really understand thit, then we can put together apresentation for here to be relevant and I even told the story in thatchapter this one agency, I was working...

...for in St Louis Young Agency having alot of success and the founder called me said, I'm so excited Mike. We gotthis pitch for this giant company. I wants us to come in and pitch them andI looked at her and I said Mindy. What are you going to pitch and she said alall of our stuff. I said why are they talking to you because I don't know butthey're not happy with their Egtassy and they want a new one and we talkthrough if they're not willing to meet with you ahead of time. What would happen if youturn this one hour pitch into a a forty minute pitch and you started themeeting INS ten and said: looked at their senior people and Sai Hey. Webrought every good thing, we've ever created here and we can present to youfor like fourteen hours, but to make this meting more relevant and to reallyunderstand if we coan help you and if we're a good fit. Let's take the firsttwenty minutes and have you onpack Forus, while we're sitting here andwhat's going on in your world, and why are you looking for an agency and whattypes of needs do you have right now and if you even want to share Mayben,why Youre, frustrator or what's not, working if you're? Okay, with that wewe love to hear it and after you spend this this early part of the meetinghelping us understand where you are and where you're trying to go we'll createa presentation for you on the fly and we'll pull the end. You get to see USthing creatively and well, do we'll do our work and and then we'll be sharingwith you what's relevant to you. So let me ask you a couple questions aboutwhat you're trying to get done and then you pive it right into discovery, whichis what good sales people do, because you accomplish more selling. I believeat times with the great questions you ask, then, when N, when you're pitching,so I went down a couple passin. My answer T, I'm not sure where you wantedme to go, but premature is one of the characteristics of presenting thatdrives me crazy, I'll, just go quickly in the second path is the focus we talkabout our company. We talk about our product. We talk about our people. Wetalk about our solutions, which is what you think you be presenting about theproblem. Is We never make the connection between our stuff and theirstuff and the reason that in medicine, you would consider a doctor committingmalpractice if they prescribed you a medicine before doing a real diagnosis?Examining you asking questions right running whatever tests before theyprescribed a medicine or a treatment plan. Similarly, in sales, it would bemanpracticed if you go in and you present before you do discovery right.So it's just wrong. If you can't tie what you're presenting to the issuesthat you understand that they have and how you're going to take them fromwhere they are to where they want to be, then your presentation is not onlypremature, but the focus is wrong because they don't really care. Theydon't really care what you guys do. I said that earlier we talke aboutmessaging and it's so critical if you're going to win- and I honestlybelieve you win in the boardroom by all the preparation work you did before youget to the boardroom, you had more meetings, you made more phone calls.You met with more people, you built consensus, you really probed, you diddiscover you understand where they are and where they want to go. So when youcome to present, I make the case that one of your key sflies is very early on.You put up a slide, or you least verbally, say here's our understandingof your situation. Do we have this right and then the focus in the room isno longer on you and your solution and an theyre engineer just sitting therewith ther OMS Por us I'll, cynical trying to poke holes in what you'representing you start out, the presiation presentation, MiG say: Hey,we've earned the you don't say this, but in your mind, you're going to we'veearned the right to make this presentation. Let me tell you whatwe've understand what we now understand about your business and where you'restruggling and what you're trying to get done, and you put up four or fivepoints and you look at the senior person on there. Anway say: Hey: Are weright here? Can you adjust any of these and has anything changed? And would youlike to prioritize these for us and the moment you get into that kind ofcontent when you're presenting the whole dynamic in the room changesbecause now they're like well you're different you're, not here pitching atus you're sitting around this table working with US helping us addressthese issues and it becomes automatic in their mind that you're the bestoption because you're the one who's presenting about what they want andwhat they need and where they're stuck everyone else is coming in and showinggreat pictures of their buildings and their proprietary processes andbragging about their culture and you're. Like Hey, let's get your problem softand that's a very different dynamic. Oh my gosh, there was so so much goodstuff in there. You know a couple things that you said that really stoodout to me. You made a comment, the...

...something about it's about thequestions you ask that are going to really differentiate you and I've foundthat to be so true when you can come in and ask good questions about them asopposed to just sharing it and then the other thing you said was you made thedoctor analogy and that's one that I use. Often too, you know it's it's truewith a lot of professional services and a doctor, an attorney, you can't justgo to a solution. I don't know why people expect that in other spaces theyexpected in my world. I I mean that is. That is how marketing agencies havealways operated. So you need to separate the discovery and the learningand providing strategy from going straight to what's the implementationagree with you yeah. It's we're not we're not paid to show up and throw upand give away free information, and you know you say in your world in theagency world. It's obviously very prevalent well in the tech world todayand a lot of the sales literature comes from the tech worlds right. The folksin the Valley in California and people in Boston and they're writing about howto sell and and what they forget. Sometimes. Is that, like your clientsand manufacturing, like many of mine, an manufacturing, you know. Ninety fivepercent of the salespeople on this planet are not in high tech, but a lotof the literature is for them and in that world it's become the norm wherethe customer has the control and they want you to come in and Demo yoursoftware and they line you up like you're, a circus animal right. Theybring you in one at a time and they sit back and they don't want to give youany info and they just make you present, and then they pick apart your featuresand your software demo and I'm like that's the furthest thing from sellingI've ever seen and it's become the norm and my coaching is: You have to breakout of the mold like you're, not going to win that game playing along the you.If you don't break out and go what am I doing here? My friend Keenans got abook called Gapselling, it's really good book. It hays a lot of the thingsthat I say in his in his own way and one of the things he talks about in thetech world is demo and his world. His statement was really blontn. He said nodiscovery, no DEMMO, you won't. Let me talk to your people. That's great! I'mnot doing a demo go talk to somebody else and part of what I like about that,because I preach a lot about selling from an abundance, mentality and owningyour sales process, and you don't just do what the customer says: You're, notan order taker you're, not a golden retriever fetching the stick, thecustomer through across the yard. You don't win deals by scoring obediencepoints. You win deals by bringing value, so sometimes you need to push back. Yougot to tell the customer, I hear you I get. I get what you're saying, and thisis your process, but here is what we found works best and I've been shaped by other goodauthors. Dave Cirlin has a book called Baseline selling it' about how therules of baseball apply to sales. If the book should be way more popularthan it is, it was formative and some of my early sales thinking even tenfifteen. Twenty years ago I was following some of his stuff before hisBuk came out, Mahan Casas Book from twenty five years ago called let's getreal or let's not play was talking about you having rights as asalesperson. You don't just follow the process. That's been dictated to you bythe customer, because the way I say it is. I have two missions as aprofessional seller, and this is a crystal clear. I write about this in aentire chapter of my last book sales. Truth you've got two missions missionnumber one is. You are obligated by integrity to get the customer the bestoutcome and the most value. That's what motivates you that's? What to keep youclean right. Sales is, is not a dirty profession like my goal is to get youthe best solution. That's mission number one mission number two: I've gotto give myself the best chance of winning the deal so any time, you'remore on customers, procurement, people or whoever else involved in leadershipat your customer prospect starts attempting to dictate a process to youthat violates mission water mission to either following their path is notgoing to get them the best solution, because it's stupid with the waythey're procuring people have set something up or you doesn't give youthe best chance of winning because they're trying to comotitize you andput you in this procurement box. That's when I call time out I'm like no N N.no, I can't get you what you need and I can't get what I need, I'm not playingand you try to work to push back and level the playing field or unlevel theplaying field in your own advantage,...

...and it's amazing how open the prospecttends to be when you have the guts to call them out on their stupid game andsay I can't play that because I can't get you what you need and you're theonly one doing that, because the other people are all you know, sheep right,just doing what they've been told and all of a sudden, you look like theperson who's, confident who sells for an abundance, mentality, who's, notdesperate, and who knows what you're doing and I've seen. Incredibly largecompanies yield to little tiny suppliers who push back on theirprocess and it's really fun. When that happens, that's really cool. I love theway you describe that yeah! It's it! No one wants to talk about this becauseit's scary, it's a lot easier to do sales training about how to do apresentation, or you know, let's, let's play with some prospecting technique.This is real world right. You got a real deal. One of the major prospectsin the world is telling you hey. Do this RFP and you're, like I, don't knowyou and I'd love to have your business, but I can't win this just puttingnumbers in your boxes and if I spend eighty hours trying to fill out your FP-and I don't even know who the Keystak golders are or whow they're going tomake your decision. Why do I think I'm even going to make it to the next round,but we're so scared right? Well, what if I don't compete, then I have nochance. Well, let me ask you this. I always say this Os, the executive of myclient, how many blind arfps have you wone in your life, where you weren't inrelationship, you didn't help them create the RFP someone you don't knowthrough this at you because they had you on a list. You think they probablysend this to ten people. You have no relationship, you have no knowledge of.What's going on how many times have you spent the seventy hours filling thatdocumentaut and what's the opportunity cost and what percent of the time doyou win? Those and theire anchis always the same? We've never won one, and I go,although why don't we try to do this little differently? Maybe maybe we'llhave a chance. So it's just it's a matter of guts, an and wisdom anddiscerning. What's the opportunity costs, because you can't play everygame you got to play and sometimes at the end, I've had this with clients. Atthe end, I will acquiesce if it's a dream, prospect and they're not willingto give me an Inchy, even though I've laid down and given it every thing, Ican to throw a temperatention say: I'm not going to play your game. Sometimesat the end I shut my mouth and I swallow my pride and we'd go put thenumbers in the boxes because we tried and we didn't succeed in getting theChane of process, but in sales. Truth in that chapter, I tell a couplestories of really big companies that did change their process and my clientswon their deals and I'm thinking they won because they push back and theyreframe the game to give themselves the best chance of winning. So that's mycoach into the listeners take a shot at it. I love it. I think it's great, youknow it's about. I think it was about seven or eight years ago I rote anarticle on our website in a I can remember, sitting in Clayton Missouri,getting my oil change, waiting, F, R and- and I was kind of furious, becausewe had just lost an RFP that I really wanted, and it probably never even gotlooked at so I sat there and just in this, while this was on my mind, Iremember sitting here and Iust wrote this Article Club, why we won't answera website, design, RFP and then I launched into this is how it shouldplay out. These are. This is how I'm going to find that article. I can'twait to read that because it's so funny how the way you're telling the story-even the memory you have the vistra reaction, how pissed off you are you're,getting your oil changing you're processing, this loss and you're likebecause you probably looked at that and thought you're the best solution forthem. You, you honestly believe deep inside they're, better off working withyou, but you didn't get to play the game. I never spoke with them, neversuposmayber, eveen, hat a conversation and yeah, so I launched into you know.This is the conversation you should be having with a marketing agency. Theseare the questions you should be asking you asking them in. These are thequestions they should be asking you that piece for you know we've kind oflet it let it go it's still alive somewhere, but for a number of years.After that, it ranked first in Google for website design, RFP and I'd havetraced. I mean I'm not kidding six figures of revenue to that in multipleyears. Well, plus, look at the Multiplyer effecto. Imagine the numberof people you've helped that you don't even know about that, read that thatare getting better solutions today or...

...the suppliers that are getting dealsthey deserve, because you put that out. That's awesome, yeah yeah, it's a coollittle success, Tor Im, I'm glad yeah. You prompted me to bring that one backup. I kind of forgout about it so mike there's a as a marketing guy, one ofthe big buzzy terms over the last five years or so has been ABM or accountbase marketing, and I had Sangra vagere on the podcast earlier this year. Ifyou know W Sangramis- and I think he's got an awesome perspective on the topic,but I think with most people who are talking about ABM, it's almost becomesuch a cliche statement that people are using it to describe a all kinds ofthings and most of the time, what they're really just talking about isfocuse disciplined selling. You talk about having a finite list of prospectsthat are very intentionally selected, and so you know probably before thatthat buzz word of ABM or compas marketing was even being tossed arounda bunch. You you, you were talking plenty about that, so I was justcurious if you could talk a little bit about this idea of having a being zerodin on some of the best prospects, yeah happy to go there, because that's whereyou start that's the first part of the framework for a successful sales attackis, is naming your strategic targets, but I can't I can't skip over something.You said because it's such a pet peeve of mine, it's the and I'm not sayingthat that the gentleman you just describe is this person. But there areso many bandwagon jumpers in my industry and that's what I call them.They hop from hot topic to hot topic. You know one day it's social selling,an the next day, it's ABM the next day. It's this thing, and- and it's like this fomo kicks in and if you don'trebrand yourself as the expert in this new thing and wrap yourself on thisblanket then you're going to miss something and I'm always amused becauseI'e been in this business now about fifteen years and I've seen a lot ofpeople come and go with their hobby horses, and I take some pride indeclaring that I'm one of the people that helped put the fork in the socialselling movement Hashtag social selling, like the woman. That start was known asone of the founders of social selling, who named her firm Hashtech socialsellingshe's, not in the sales training, business anymore, she's gone and theguy who named himself the pioneer of social selling right brag that hebrought social selling to the world. Right he's been out of work like fivetimes in the last five years, regularly online asking people to hire him. Sowhat I'm trying to say here is be weary of the online experts who have today'sfix. With today's hot button thing Ta tell you, everything in sales andmarketing is changed. You need today's cool ast tool, toy technique or you'rea dinosaur, that's a load of crap being perpetruated by people that have anagenda and something they're trying to sell you and again, I'm not cusing.Anyone in particular of that but Theea bandwaggon thing is very dangerous,because the fundamentals are still the fundamentals. To your specific questionon targeting you can't be serious about being a new business development focus,strategic contentional salesperson. If you don't have a finite, workablewritten list of strategically selected target accounts that you're committedto pursuing- and every word I just said is intentional, and I would encouragelisteners go back fifteen seconds and listen to that again. Strategic Finite,written, workable, intentionally selected lists of accounts you'recommitted to pursuing, because I get really nervous when I talk to yourselfperson and I'm like Hey, show me your list and they open up the crm and theyscroll through, like nine pages af four hundred accounts and I'm like dudeyou're, not calling a forganger companies who you committed going afterright now show me the thirty or the twelve or that seventeen or sometimesis sixty the customers. That look smell and feel like ideal profile prospectsthat you're able to do your research and launch your sales weapons and focuslike crazy, because if I argue, if you don't have a finite, a finite list of acountyere committed to pursuing then you're just playing it'. Developing newbusiness like it's the first step and the reality is real sales hunters. Whenyou help them really think and whether they're going into their existingcustomer database of current accounts and they're, identifying those that aremost groble because that's a great place to get new businesses. GROBALexisting accounts, instead of just...

...overserving, your friends that buyeverything from you, go see the difficult customers, and only by alittle bit. But there's all this upseane crossall opportunities- and Iknow when you're client based that's a huge thing when your sell, when you'rea manufacturer right and you they're buying one or two their cherry pickingyour line, but tere's this entire assortment of things. You could beselling them, but it takes work right. So what I'm saying is the strategichunter when they see a list of ideal profile prospects that have thecharacteristics right: they're of the profile, they're the size, the verticalthey're in a location theyhave, a certain structure. They look likecustomers who love you and get your value and buy from you. That's a softball down the middle for a sales hunter, because you build your story and youbuild your knowledge and you can call it account base marketing you a callwhatever you want. You know that vertical you know that type of customer.You know the language you study them. You get to know them. If it's alongsale cycle, you get to really get deep into that account. Sometimesbefore you sell them anything and all of the things I'm articulating here arearound focus and intentionality we're not cold calling the phone book. That'swhy I hate people that make fun of cold calling because no one's calling thephone book that that's a myth, if you're a professional seller- and youare prospecting against a very small finite list of strategically selectedprospects, who look smell and feel like people who get your value, that's thefurthest thing from cold, calling the phone book. So the more research you doin the better. You understand that market and the sharper your messagingis well go back to where we started right. When you can really articulatekey bullet points of problems, you solve pans, your remove issues, youaddress results you achieve and you build those points into yourprospecting, weapons and you're, going after a known quantity, a type ofaccount. You look like an expert so that that was a long answer, but that it's focus its strategy and it'sconfidence you'r going in the right direction after people who need whatyou sell I' hundred percent in agreement with you there you knowthere's so many companies. I talk to and H s. The same thing really applieson the marketing front. This idea of focus, I it's companies that are well.We serve fifteen different verticles and they're all important okay. Well,you can't you can't you try to serve fifteen different verticals and addressthat through marketing you're, going to spread yourself, then you're going toaccomplish nothing at all, really wel. Let me ask you a question Joe, becauseI can imagine you have that going on marketing. I have that with salespeople, and I see the salesperson say why I don't want to give up any ofthese accounts or this focus, because what if they want something- and Ialways say if you're selling everything to everybody- you're selling- nothingto nobody like you, what you're just just hanging out hoping something comesin your lap, but you can't target whatever number of verticals you like.What's what's the message and how are you focused an I mean if someone callsyou back, you don't even know what they were calling about like you. It doesn't.It doesn't make sense, Finnite, fiite, strategic targeting, that's right, andyou know one thing I always emphasize to is just because you areintentionally selecting. I guess, in my case, as a marketer, a specificvertical or type of customer or something to pursue, it doesn't meanyou don't serve. Other people like it means that you are going to channelyour energy, and you know your resources into very specific andintentional things as opposed to spreading yourself, then an andaccomplishing very little, and so I think sometimes that resonates I's likeokay. I get it we'r right now, we're focused here and and when this guyknocks on my door and it's a potentially a good fit, it doesn't meanI'm not Goingna do business with them right, intentionalities, a big wordthat gets ignored a lot today, Mike you published your most recent sales booksales, truth in two thousand and nineteen, it's on the kindle ap on myphone, but I have not yet read it. So I was curious, be cou. Just tell ourlisters a little bit about what sales truth about. What inspired you to write.It there's only a couple, a couple themes in sales truth and whilenewsales symplified is more of the. How to this is more o an expose on thesales industry and a e real focus on...

...two key topics that we've touched on alittle bit. I wrote the book. Yes, what motivated I was pissed off. I'm angryat my colleagues in this industry who preach a lot of nonsense to gullibledesperate sales, people, people that say things like the phone is dead,you're, an idiot, your a luddite you're, a dinosaur. If you pick up the phone-and they quote the Challenger Call Research which has been debunked thattoday's buyer goes fifty seven percent through their buying process beforeengaging a salesperson. That's only true if he lazy, reactive, Salesperson,O sitting on their asks, doing nothing waiting for the customer to get throughsome imaginary buying process that really doesn't exist on paper and whenthey get to the fifty seven percent, Mork then they're going to call you andsay: Hey come on and talk to me. I now have permission to talk. toot salesperson like the whole contept, is stupid and around that theory, entiresales training methodologies have popped up trying to sell you everythingfrom inbound marketing, and I mean there's a guy in the social sellingtraining world who wrote an article has said: listen, Kaily, Jenter, KiliJenner, okay, like I didn't even know who she really was right of theCardashian World Right Kaili Jenner became a billionaire through socialmedia. Can't you see, she didn't cold call her away to a billion dollars innet worth social selling works, and I look at that and I'm like you'reserious, like you think, a real company is going to hire you as a sales trainer,because Kaili Jenner, taking half naked selfies is the role model forprofessional manufacturing salesperson. To get appointments is that going towor? You want to see Haw, they get pictures of me. I don't think that'sgoing to get you any meetings. I think if I picked up the phone and caughtpeople like hey, I help a lot of people like you that struggle with hey andthen look ing to Hat Che B. Shall We talk? I'm going to get more meetingsand if I post pictures of myself and then you got the inbound marketingpeople that hold up Gary Vayner Juck, who is really talented, right andreally big. But if you ask, in my opinion Gary v Taking selfies ofhimself wearing a ski cap in July, dropping f bombs is not the role modelfor your salespeople, Tha and your clients or nor mine. So well, it's cooland Gary has a big presence and kily genners a billion are still in makeup.I'm not sure. That's the plan O for sale success so so part of the reason Iwrote the book is I wanted. I. I actually quoted these charlatans thethings they were putting out o sales ovice and said: Be careful whe, youlisten to Becauve the barrier to entry today to be a sales thought leader is alingthen profile and an Internet connection like you can get a lot oflike saying a lot of stupid things. Don't help people, and so part of mewas exposing that that's a small part of the book, but it's the first partbecause I had to get off my chest. T E, the mid section of the book is where Isaid: Listen to me: People the most valuable sales people I'm observingtoday and I have clients in a bizarre array of industries from big data tobig defense, to big distribution, to dealerships like it's all over theplace and across the board, whether it's defense or data or or you know,industrial distribution. The top sales people are the ones who createopportunities. They don't just chase or wait the most valuable sales peoplecreate. So I took six chapters in a rol and unpacked. What are the keys tobeing an opportunity? Creator owning your calendar having the right attitudehaving a strategic list? Sharpening your message being committed aProspecti, I mean there's not a new idea in that whole section and I justwent through some of the best practices of what does it take to really puttogether a successful sales attack from both an attitude and and a technicalperspective. And then, at the end of the book, I profiled some top producingsales people, because I wanted to encourage the sales community thatpeople who are top producers are not freaks of nature and they don't havelike to superhero powers. They just work really hard and they master thefundamentals and they prepare and they're driven and they're focused andthey know their business and they know their customers business and they knowtheir competitors and they work and everyone wants the silver bullet or theshort cut or the secret sauce. And I'm like why don't you work on thefunamentals, because the very best sales people and I profiled from a BTCguy that sells cars to a be a Bguy?...

That's the number one financialservices I've ever seen and there they couldn't be more different in theirpersonalities and everything about them. Except they're, both number one foryears and years, AFD years, an make a gazillion dollars, and I showed onpaper what they have in common in terms of drive, creativity, focus onfundamentals, and that's really what the book is. It's the truth about whatdoesn't work and the lies in the industry. What does it take to createopportunities and then who's really winning, and why you talk about so manythings that are just timeless principles. You know technology isgoing to change. The thought leaders in quotes is is are going to change, butthere are a lot of timeless principles in sales that remain true, and I thinkyou you, through your experience and keeping yourself sharp and writingabout it and speaking about it. U Kno, it's very clear that you've got a greatperspective on the fact that that's just the truth- and it's Weird Joe, I don't know it'sI'm in an odd position. I didn't expect to be sitting in this chair as theolder guy with gray hair. I was younger when I got into this industry, and Isaid some really bold things early on about fundamentals and basics and don'tfall for the sexy shiny new toy whole. Here I am standing fifteen years latergoing. I guess I was right because I've seen all these other people cyclethrough and all these fads come and go. And yet my phone keeps ringing fromsales teams that are struggling. Some really big companies saying hey. Weneed some help with fundamentals and then we go in and we fix the stuff thatmatters just like you go in and fix the marketing things that really matter andI go in and I play with targeting and messaging and sales call structure anddiscovery and and all of a sudden pipeline start getting filled upbecause putting someone through social, sell and training isn't filling thefunnel right or everybody will be doing it. So it's just I've just learned overtime like be very weary of the fads and I'm sure we're going. Ta Have Cluphouseas a new thing right club. Everyone is writing by club us someone tag me OLindon, Post, O kind of Suckd me into the conversation I've Trie to stay outof it and they said what do you think? What do you think is this? Should salespeople be on clop house, and I knew it was coming right and I said I don'tknow I said I don't know, but let me tell you what's going to happen in thenext few months, there's going to be a new crop of experts, TAT pop up asclubhouse experts and they're going to be selling you programs how to maximizeyour clubouts platform, and some of them are going to stry to suck sales,people and sales leaders into this, and I said I'm going to withhold myjudgment, but I'm telling you that will happen and a lot of sales, people thatdon't want to pick up the phone or do traditional selling are going to thinkup. Here's the answer. Social Selling didn't work in bound, didn't do all itneeded to do. I'm going to now use club house because it's sexand it's new. Idon't think it's going to work, but there'll be a few people that make itwork, but I say let's watch and see, and if some really top producers figureout how to use club house as a as a tool, tof create a following and drivebusiness and whenever that does get their Ip out good for them and wellcopy their behavior. But until I see that happening, I'm going to assumeit's just the next fad and when that one ends because it willend like they all do I'll be standing here, going hey sales people. Do youhave a target list? Have you sharpend your story? Can you prospect to get ameeting when you get a meeting? Do you do good discovery and flush thatobjection a defiing next steps when you present? Is it about the customer aboutyou and hey by the way? Let me see your calendar in your pipe line. Howdisciplined are you and ir? Do you own your calendar and you spend timecreating advancing and closing opportunities which, by the way, thoseare the only three sales verbs that matter create advanceing clothes? Or doyou spend time babysitting customers and getting in bog zero? Because that'snot going to fill the pipeline and help you be a top producer and at the end ofthe day I keep waiting to find Joe the situation that we can solve with thefundamentals, because when I run through that list and I'll just I'llwrap with this story, one of the real big banks in America happens to be abank ride bank. So I was intriguing to get this phone call calld me up and saywe love your stuff, we're doing a big virtual selling training initiative andI get it was blocked down and people...

...needed help a virtual selling and I wason the phone call with this executives in this big committee: Shopping for avirtual selling sales trainer, and I ended up pointing him to my friend JebBlunt. At the end of the day. I don't know if they went that lay Ecaus, jvs,brilliant he's got a great virtual studio and all that. But I said beforeI pitch you on virtual selling training. Can I just ask you some questionsbecause I knew the answer I said forget covid forget having osell on online. Let's just go but go to R, your typical banker, relationshipmanager, commercial, ending officer, the whole different organization, allthe sales people in this giant bank. I said. Let me just ask you somequestions: Do they have a strategic list of targets that they're working?No okay? Do they have compelling messaging? That really gets up theissues you address for clients and articulate value, and they said no, ourMessagiis, not good. I said: Can Your People Prospect Dod, they actuallyinitiate contact with Grobel clients and noncustomers? No we're not reallygood at prospective okay. When they get a meeting. Do they do good discoverywork? Do they do they understand how to structure to they come across likeadvisors and consultants? No we're not really running good sales meetings.Okay, how about their calendar? Do they do they carve out time? Do theytimeblock? Are you measuring pipeline the way? No, we don't do that and Ipushed back from the table. I said, and you really think, an need. Virtualselling training, how much you know! Eighty percent of what we do in saleshas not changed whether we're looking into a camera, and we have to careabout the background a and deal with the unique things with virtual or notthe things I just articulated haven't gone away, so you can dress up yourtraining and virtual selling training, and I would strongly recommend myfriend Jeblon's book virtual selling, it's a phenomenal book and he's doingan amazing job there, because there are nuances- and I think some of the inperson selling is never going to come back regardless of her immunity andvaccinations and there's just some convenience to to virtual I'm a fan ofin person and a lot of that is going to come back, but not all of it. But youget where I'm going with this Joe and the audience. The basics are still thebasics. So don't tell me you need the best virtual tool, if you don't havethe five or six fundamentals nailed down focus on that. I promise you'llget sales lift like it works every time. No one ever questions. If you runthrough that list, I just ran through. Will that create more sales, it alwayscrate more sales, so ill, that's the best. I could say that well, that waswell said and I think the people who are who are getting clubhouse rightright now or about to and the people who are getting virtual selling wrihtor whatever it is the ones who are succeeding with it are succeeding withit, probably because they got the fundamentals right and then are using atool to do those things better right. It's not because they chose to use thisshiny tool. Yeah. It's perfectly stated, that's exactly right. They had thefundamenls and they were good to begin with yeah the tool. The tool didn'tmake them the tool, help them expand, just a tool, that's what it is so wellMike. I can't tell you what NNONORI is having had to the opportunity to talkwith you and and have you on my show here you know s as one of the most theauthors of one of the most influential books I have read in my career. Thiswas just really exciting for me and, and it was a pheomenal conversation,Wull you're- really kind. Thank you for the opportunity to visit with yourlisteners. This was a fun dialogue. I can't wait to share this with myaudience as well, because it's the basics, it's the basic. So I wish youand girilla seventy six tons of successmen. Thank you thanks for thekind words and the chance to visit with you absolutely Mike, where can you tellour audience where, like the best way to get in touch with you, where theycan learn more about what you're doing in your books, yeah on social, it'sMike Underscore Wineberg W Einberg Mike under score Winberg, and i MikeWinbergcom, where you can find my stuff, my bog and my relatively new salesmanagement, simplified podcast, awesome wll. I got to check out the PODCAST. Ididn't realize you were podcasting so at that one's going to be mab hittingsubscribe later today. Awesome! Well, thank you once again and as for therest of you, I hope to catch you on the next episode of the ManufacturingExecutive. You've been listening to themanufacturing executive podcast to ensure that you never missed an episodesubscribe to the show in your favorite...

...podcast player. If you'd like to learnmore about industrial marketing and sale strategy, you'll find an everexpanding collection of articles, videos guides and tools specificallyfor BTO b manufacturers at grilla. Seventy sixcom warn thank you so muchfor listening until next time.

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