The Manufacturing Executive
The Manufacturing Executive

Episode · 1 year ago

Why Voice of Customer is Essential in Marketing w/ Dave Loomis

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

What is Voice of Customer? How can Voice of Customer be used to curate tailored content across your industry? Why is this important?

These are a few of the many questions answered on today’s show with industry expert, Dave Loomis.

In this episode, Joe Sullivan of Gorilla 76 speaks with Dave Loomis, President of Loomis Marketing on episode 28 of The Manufacturing Executive podcast. Our dynamic conversation covered...

  • How do you facilitate a voice of customer meeting?
  • What are the benefits of a voice of customer meeting?
  • Understanding the pain customers feel and ideal outcomes

Want more resources and information?

For more ways to serve others as an individual or business, Dave has written a book called Marketing Is Everything We Do. Dave also suggests checking out New Product Blueprinting by Dan Adams and Jobs to Be Done by Tony Ulwick.

To hear more interviews like this one, subscribe to The Manufacturing Executive podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

We tend to think that we're considered, we're perceived as smart, by the things we say, but I think that even more powerful is the questions that we ask. Welcome to the manufacturing executive podcast, where we explore the strategies and experiences that are driving mid size manufacturers forward. Here you'll discover new insights from passionate manufacturing leaders who have compelling stories to share about their successes and struggles, and you'll learn from B tob sales and marketing experts about how to apply actionable business development strategies inside your business. Let's get into the show. You need to listen to your customers. It's almost become a cliche statement. Pay attention to their needs, ask for feedback, look for confirmation that what you're doing for them is actually providing value. Will due right. If you're not doing that much, you're probably not running a very successful business in the first place. So how can you go a level deeper in gathering those customer insights and really mine for what lies beneath the surface? I'm talking about the things you couldn't have assumed matter to them, because those things could have only been born inside your customers brains and come out of your customers mouths. Well, today it will be talking about how to UNCO cover those things in a very intentional way, and we'll also talk about how doing so will impact your ability to better serve your customers, will simultaneously arming you with Intel that will influence both product rd and marketing. Our guests today is an expert in this line of work, which he refers to as Voice of customer, or VOC Dave loomis is president of loomis marketing LLC. He's a consultant, coach, writer and Speaker on the topics of innovation, branding, leadership and personal growth. Dave is also an expert project manager helping large BB companies navigate digital transformation. After attending northwestern university, Dave began his career at Leo Burnett Advertising. Following an MBA from northwestern's Kellogg School of Management, he went on too rolls and consulting a multibillion dollar public holding company innovation, training and public relations. Over the course of his career, Dave is had the opportunity to work with many of the world's best known companies, especially manufacturers, including Dow, Dupont, GE, goodyear, Hamilton, beach brands, heister Yale Ibm ITW, Motorola, Oshkosh, St Cobain, Steris and Xerox. Quite the resume there. Dave works and lives in Chagrin Falls, Ohio. Dave, welcome to the show. Thank you, happy to be here. Awesome. Well, Dave, I know you've got some exciting news that I'd love for you to share with our listeners right away. Is Your Book just hit print? I guess I just want live and available to now purchase, which is a big milestone in your career. I would imagine that is true. It literally just this last weekend went up on Amazon in Ebook and paperback format, and it was a labor, a Labor of love for sure, kind of the culmination of a lot of years of thinking through different models and approaches and and kind of my own business philosophy, and I felt like it really gelled for me in the last few years and even especially this year, you know, kind of in the year of Covid and I think a lot of we all had time to do a lot of thinking and planning also, so I was I was busy work wise, but also kind of set aside some time to do this project that I've been wanted to do for a long time. Some very excited about it. What's the name of the book and was it? What's it about? It's called marketing is everything we do. It's in the back drop here, but marketing is everything we do, how serving others bring success in...

...business and in life, and there's a little kind of descripture at the bottom, inspirational outlooks, practical approaches, useful tools. So it's kind of a combination of personal stories about kind of successes and also things that I've learned the hard way and some practical tools that I've developed over the years that kind of help people think through kind of a nice, logical, sequential way to think about marketing, especially in the Bob Space. So especially for your listeners, very appropriate in terms of the manufacturing world and innovation, new product development, Voice of customer etc. That's great. I think something fresh on that topic is is awesome right now, so make sure to go check that out. Will mention mention it again at the end of the episode. Make sure everybody has a link to it in the show notes as well. So we'll congrats on that. Thank you well, Dave. You know is we get into this episode here. You know we're going to talk about this topic of Voice of customer and or often, you know, just referred to as VOC, which is a topic some people listening may know about. Frankly, I even, as a marketing guy, you know, I heard voc and I thought of emissions from paint, as we work with, you know, people companies in the manufacturing space and industrial codings. Actually no organic compounds. Yeah, there you go it. So you probably run into that all the time, conflicting Google searches and things. But you know, I think most companies, when they think of VOC, whether they know or don't know what that means, which your I'Ma have you clarify it just a second, they think they're maybe doing voc work by just having conversations with customers and it's, you know, doing it right. As I've learned from reading things that you have written and a couple conversations we've had, it's deeper. It goes deeper than that and is a lot more to it, which is why I've got you here to sort of break it down today. So could you start by defining what exactly voice of customer means and also tell us how it's different from just conducting ordinary customer conversations. Yeah, great question. I think that, as you suggested, most companies out there and most leaders of those companies are under the impression that they're doing voice of customer work. The reason why everyone has that impression is because they're in contact with their customers all the time. They have sales people out there on the streets, they have service forces that are repairing things or making sure things work, engineering is going out there, whatever it is, whoever it is, there's customer service people on the line now on zoom, constantly. So and then many times those people that are coming contact with customers are bringing back information and there and so there's this idea that, yeah, we do we do surveys, we do net promoter score, we do we do outreach. We're talking to people all the time. They're coming back with ideas from the customers and that's great. We're doing voc so that's the reason why people think that it's being done. The reason why I don't think that it's being done very well or in very many places is because I think it's a very it needs to be a very specific process to be effective, and what I mean by that is that the meeting itself, you know, it is sort of traditional voice of customer meeting. I think can and should be very specific in its intent and orchestrated in a very specific way, and when it is, the kind of feedback that we get is extremely different...

...than the kind of feedback we get just on an everyday basis from just sort of being aware and listening and bringing things back very, very different, and I think it can be the difference between maybe little incremental improvements and therefore incremental share gain and real innovation, breakthrough, innovation, disruption or even small things that can just make a difference in it's in you, in Your Business and differentially from competition that in those in that orchestrated meeting and which I can tell you more about. That's where these these little gems can come out. What I'm hearing from you is that there is an intentional process that should be put in play here rather than just keeping your ears open and picking up little nuggets here and there in the course of your daily work with your customers. And if that's I see nodding is is that? If that's the case, is there a magic recipe for doing voc effectively, or is there a you mentioned the meeting is what does that look like? Tell tell our listeners what it what it looks like to you know, schedule a VOC meeting the way it should be done, how that plays out, what information you're trying to gather in that setting. Yeah, usually when somebody asks me something about is there a magic recipe for almost anything, my answer is usually no and then, you know, there's some long conversation about the you know, sort of subtleties of this and that. I think my answer is yes, I think there is a magic recipe. To be honest, it's not even rocket it's not rocket science either. I think you need to make an appointment with your with your customers, and it can be for an hour, hour and a half in person. When we get back to meeting in person, but can be done very easily over zoom or Webex or remotely. And the meeting is set up as discovery in a very specific way and saying hey, we are doing some voice of customer work discovery, but it's going to be different than than what you might be expecting. This is you, the manufacture speaking to your customer. So you say, look, we promise not to sell in this meeting and we promise not to solve. We're going to have a few people. We're going to have somebody from marketing, a technical person, perhaps our relationship manager, our salesperson there, but we promise not to sell or solve and we promised not to go down a list of questions that we have prepared about what we think might be issues you're having. It's going to be completely open ended and we're going to give you a chance to talk about what you want to talk about. Now the topic should be fairly focused. So I would say that you want to pick sort of an application segment. So instead of saying, Oh, I'm just going to talk to my big customers where they are or this region or what have you, say, Oh, I'm going to talk to my customers that are using our product in this particular way, because they're going to have similar issues. So if you're going to be talking to one of them, you you're explicit with them when you start the meeting that this is what we're going to we're going to be talking about and we're going to be talking about problems that you're having with blank and then from them. It's it's open ended, you're saying. So tell us about issues that you're having our challenges that you're having. It could be anything. It to be anything having to do with the beginning, mental or end of the process. It could be anything having to do with the product itself or even the buying process or the you know, it's up to you. What's the issue? You talk to them, they answer and you can't predict what they what any of these issues are really going to be. And then something I...

...can talk about a little bit later or more if you're interested, is what you're looking for when they bring up a problem. You're going to be looking for the outcome that they're the desired outcome that they are, that they're after, and the reason why we're looking for that is that you're going to hear a lot of ideas, like I said before, from customers. We all get them. You should do this, you should do this, you should add this, should add this button on the front, you should, you know, you know, increase the horse power, you should do whatever. The reason they're suggesting that is because they want an outcome. They want whatever you're providing to do something a little differently for them or they have a different outcome. You want to understand that outcome. You want to make note of their idea of how to accomplish it, but it's your business. We're the experts right and how to do that. And so in a lot of ways we're interested in what the customer has to suggest, but that might might not be the way that we end up solving it, and so we want to we don't understand, we don't want their idea and necessarily we want their desired outcome. Well, you know, like you and I are as marketing consultants, it's our job to be the expert practitioner, right, just as you don't go into your doctor's office and say, I'm having this problem, here's what I want you to do. You go there because, yeah, that he or she can help you solve that problem, but they also have the expertise to evaluate and prescribe and make sure that what they prescribe is going to help you reach your desired outcome. So I really like, from that perspective, the approach and I imagine the benefits of doing this are. There are many. I'm sitting here thinking about as you're speaking and I'm thinking, okay, well, one you can figure out how to better serve this particular customer that you're talking to to your you're essentially doing market research where you're going to start to identify trends about what buyers like this probably actually care about the most, which some of those things, I imagine, are revealing to you. And then and then that in turn is going to impact R and D and product development. Probably, depending on what type of company you are, it's probably also going to affect your marketing, because if you understand the pains and and desired outcomes of your customer and you see trends across that, you know how to cater your messaging accordingly. Right. Yeah, that's a your last point is really interesting. You're absolutely dead on on all the points you just made. The last one is interesting about the impact on marketing, and one of the one of the elements that I suggest, part of that recipe for that VOC meeting is to have somebody take notes, verbatim notes of what you're asking and what they're saying and the probing and the and the conversation and and actually display them on the screen while you're while you're taking the notes, or project them if you're in a conference room or what have you. There's some benefits to that. One is, if you've ever been in a meeting where you're collaborating around a document? Doesn't it feel a little bit different? Like you're looking at it, you're you can look at it being typed up there and you say no, not quite that, put this here, or say, you know, I didn't mean exactly that, but you're putting things in the way the customer says it. A lot of times, especially in industry, we have jargon, we have internal words for the things that we make and the way they work and what they solved. The customer may or may not use those terms. They use the terms that they use because it's a tool for them getting a job done. And if we can capture verbatim the...

...pain that they feel and what they're you know, how they feel about and what they're looking for, and then we can later mine that for marketing verbiage, then then we're speaking to them in their language. We're not like peppering them with our jargon. You know, when we go to sell whatever it is, we innovate and create, and so it really is a full circle process that we're starting here. Yeah, that's a really smart and powerful point there, and you know, it's I think of all the times when I've coached a new employee at our firm WHO's talking to a client and they're using acronym, marketing acronyms and and words that mean something inside our firm and we use every day. But customersn't talk that way. They think of something that way. Hence hence the topic right Voice of customer, trying to understand how they speak and how they talk about things. Right, they may have their own acronyms, and this comes all the time. Is that they are speaking to us and they're using some terminology that we might not be familiar at with because they're talking about their process. Now, instead of relationship managers that have known that customer for a long time, they're much less apt to just say, Oh, time out, what is CDL stand for? Again, you know, because they're supposed to know right, and that, at least that's the way they feel. But another part of the recipe of VOC is ask, you know, don't. There's no stupid question from us, because what we're doing is we're authentically trying to understand what the issue is because we want to solve it. We're going to take a really quick break here to help pay the bills. So two thousand and twenty has been a weird year. Industries are facing new challenges as we navigate life without trade shows, events and in person meetings. Many businesses are bolstering their online tools to offer a better experience. Will also making up for some of those missing trade show leads, and that's where codemist part solutions comes in. They help you create a dynamic, sharable cad catalog that you put on your website. Designers can preview your products from any angle and download and the format that they prefer. By improving the online experience, engineers and architects get the data they need for their design and you get a fresh lead in your marketing pipeline. Who Needs Trade shows anyway? To learn more, visit part solutionscom leads. Yeah, that's that's a great point. Dave. WHO inside of a manufacturing organization, or really a company in general, but knowing that we're speaking to manufacturers here, do you think should be responsible for conducting these VOC conversations? I think that it's a team effort. But, but, but part of the recipe is that we have we suggest very, very specific roles for folks that are involved in in VOC. So, for example, I think that leadership of the process works best when it's in it depends on your company what you have in terms of the rolls and what you call people, but it's a marketing role or product management or product development roll, somewhere in there you've got somebody who can learn this process well enough to be the sort of leader or the moderator of the conversation. I'd take somebody from technical side and I'd take some I you could take somebody from sales. Often, a lot of times it's hard to sort of leave those people out because they own the you know, the customer relationship and so forth. Somebody other than that moderator can be the note taker during the meeting and the salesperson. You have to coach this person to be more of an observer, to chime in once in a while, but not...

...to step on the conversation. And the whole part about not selling and not solving is really vital because when you're asking the customer open ended questions and you're letting them respond, your probing and saying, okay, what else, what are the problems you have? You need to do enough of that to get enough sort of out onto the table. But if in the middle of it. They say well, you know, I'm having a problem with the speed of this machine, and the sales guide chimes saying goes, well, the x thirty nine forward does that right now, and the customer says, Oh really, and then that their technical person says, tell say more about that, because I wasn't aware that pretty soon you're in a sales meeting and then, you know, you're like, Oh, okay, sorry, we took up that, you know, twenty five minutes or half an hour talking about that. You know, we'll get back to you. The same thing can happen with a technical conversation. You know, Oh, I'd really like to, you know, solve this problem. Things are getting stuck here on this conveyor when it rounds this corner or something. The engineer says, Oh, really, you know, is it? What kind of boxes? You know? Can You oh, well, what if we did this? What if we put a baffle and BUBB UP? Okay, yeah, you're solutioning, you're not discovering. Yeah, so you need to be you really need to be disciplined about that, and our brains are probably wired to, you know, default to that way of thinking when we're in sales or we're a technical person. So you do. I understand why you're saying you kind of have to go in there with very clear intentions. Can and have that top of mine communicate that to the person you're speaking with. Yeah, it's definitely. Dave. Is there an example or case study? Whether or not you use a real, you know, company name is not important to me, but where you could, you could describe a situation where doing this kind of voice of customer work produced some kind of significant impact on the organization? Definitely. There's a few in the book but I won't repeat those. I will I'll give you one that is fairly recent and and really interesting too, especially for for manufacturers. So one of my clients that I help with with this voice of customer work is one of the larger companies involved in the sterilization space. So they manufacture equipment and in some parts of the company solutions and solutions meaning liquid that sterilizes cleaners other things, but they also have machinery that that does this in hospitals and other other all over. Really in business. One of their divisions is really interesting because they make a product that a lot of people don't know about. Her ever, heard of, which is it vaporizes hydrogen peroxide to sterilize and entire room or space. So little particles of hydrogen peroxide get put out into a room and in a vapor in several hours or over night, and then literally everything in the entire room is there for decontaminated. Let's put that. It's the semi scientific word. So this is called VHP. There's an acronym for you. And so I helped instruct an internal team that looked exactly like what I just said to you before. There was a marketing person, technical person, sales. They were involved, and we also talked about segmentation the way I mentioned it, which was application oriented. So instead of just widen net over all the different ways this v HP is used, because we're going to hear, we would hear, all sorts of different issues, let's concentrate our efforts and focus first on one kind of use case...

...and this particular use case. What that I'm thinking of was animal testing labs. So you can imagine that there's what that might be like in research, in universities, research labs, things like that, and the company had some ideas about Innova, possible innovations. So everything from product tweaks to product overhauls, new products, things like that that would, you know, potentially change the game right and went into do this interviewing, like I mentioned, totally open ended. Okay, no list of questions. Would you like this feature? Would you like this feature? What if we did this? Not that at all, just literally just the opposite. And they were very surprised because they came out of it not really making any product changes at all. Everybody said, well, we love the product, it's just that it's expensive and we don't have money in our capital budgets on it on an annual basis to buy something like this. However, if we were able to lease it, if we were if you were able to provide a service and come in and do this to con decontamination for us, that would accomplish the same thing. Remember the outcomes. The outcome is that they want the room decontaminated, not I want a machine to decontaminate. And so by focusing on that outcome and understand it and doing it open endedly, they never would have predicted. They would have gone in with their list of things to improve and they would have probably done in Roi. You know, all the all the numbers and they probably would have made some changes to the product, but this time they made product changes to service offering and it's really started a whole wave within that area that has kind of change change the company. That's that's a powerful example there and shows what could have been had they just decided to make assumptions or to order rely on that tangential feedback without, as you've described, digging for the desired outcome. You know, yes, the customer sort of just in one off situations what they think they want. They're probably you know, you're not going to get the full picture. So No, and also we all do this. We lead the witness. We've all watched enough, you know, Cork shows to know what that is. It's basically putting words in someone's mouth. And Oh, I'll bet you're having a problem with this and it's interesting. As humans we want to be, you know, agreeable to others. So a lot of times we just agree. Well, well, yeah, sure course, I guess I am having problem with that. And then there's conversation about it. And especially if somebody in a company has kind of a pet project or idea. I guarantee if they went out to the field and ask questions. They could definitely come back and say, Yep, I definitely verified this, validated it. Customers all said they'd love this, you know, but you led the witness. Yeah, well, leading the witness, I think, can have the effect of almost insecurity for you, as you know, saying, Oh, I'm going to assue, I've seen this before, so I'm just going to assume this is a problem and I'll probably sound smart because I'll sound smarter because I'm recognizing something that they probably are experience dancing, and then they're going to say, oh my gosh, yes, but in reality, like you said, people wind up being agreeable, whereas if you go in and ask the open ended questions, I like, what is the issue you're having? Well, now, instead of demonstrating that you're a...

...know it all, you're demonstrating that you're here to listen to them. So I think that has a really positive impact as well. Most definitely, I think we tend to think that we're considered, we're perceived as smart by the things we say, but I think that even more powerful is the questions that we ask and how well we listen, and how well we listen. Yeah, because it really comes across that that we care and that we're really we're really there to solve the problem. Tell you the what you hear after these meetings, what customers say to you, is astounding. I mean they say, Oh my God, this was an amazing meeting. We've never had a meeting like this. Someone's finally really listening to us. And I know that sounds completely cliche, like I made it up and it's in a role play video or something like that, but honestly, we hear that all the time. I believe it. Well, let's see here, Dave, shift gears for a second here. Most listeners of this show, being a manufacturing people, spend plenty of time at trade shows. Now, two thousand and twenty, of course, is the exception, as we're sitting here in early December of two thousand and twenty recording this, and the first half of next year we can probably assume it's going to be largely the same. But you know, trade shows will come back around and they'll probably look different and everything, but they're they're I'm sure they're not gone forever. And I know you've mentioned that you're a fan of using trade shows to Conduct v OC work, and I was curious if you could speak to that for a moment. Absolutely, I am a big fan of trade shows. I think there was probably a while where people thought, oh, these are kind of a dinosaur and, especially if you're a manufacturer and it's a larger trade show, it's expensive. I mean honestly the price tag and he you know this too, I'm sure, for helping out some of your clients. It's it can be astronomical and when others, especially say a CEO or board of Directors or, you know, private equity or anyone, comes in and like put some magnifying glass over the financials, they're going to see this line item and say, do we really need to do this? And you know what can we do instead? or we'll do it every other year or we'll just scrap it and, you know, put the money elsewhere. I really I'm a big fan of trade shows because it brings people together that have a common industry, three need application etc. And it is this interesting combination of customers and vendors and suppliers. So there's a whole value chain. Usually that's represented either in the booths or in aisles or both. So for VOC at these, I think it can range, you know, depending on what you want to do, from pretty formal to extremely informal. Pretty formal, since people are co located, that maybe people you want to talk to you can get. You can get a suite at a hotel room or what or conference room at that show and do a focus group and conducted in the same way that you do this open ended work. Or you can just get a room and schedule customers to come in, you know, one after the other. Just set the times up to do these, you know, more in depth one on one or a couple people, couple people voc meetings or last February and Vegas at the world of concrete show, which is a great one, I conducted VOC in the my clients booth. So people came by and either I had appointments or I got...

...just people on the fly who would be willing to sit down for a few minutes and talk to us. Get up some amazing insight from them. And then finally, another sort of, I think under utilized, kind of approach would be, you know, sometimes your competitors are there and you know you can get some good competitor intelligence during trade shows as well, either from those competitor boosts or from people you know their customer, competitor customers, and so I've been pretty successful with some of that as well. Yeah, I think it's a really great perspective on what to do with trade shows, because it seems to be a big debate, I think, especially right now. Or they're worth going to and who knows what they're going to look like when they come come back around. But you know, so many companies go there with the goal of scanning lots of badges and, you know, trying to build build a list of people who probably don't mostly want to hear from you on the sales front. I have a lot of clients who have had a lot of success in trade shows, especially with the ones who are in really niche trade shows. But what a great opportunity to do exactly what you're describing, to just talk to people, you know, a your building relationships with people in a way that's very different than when you're trying to sell them something, because their guard is down, you know, and if you make it clear that I'm I am trying to gather research on the industry. And you know the other thing you could do. My marketing brains always on. So a marketing guy here. But what a great opportunity for you to create some content with your potential future customers, or at least people who are the peers of your potential future customers, to be able to share these insights. You know one tangible example I can give you a one of the earliest interviews, I think it was episode four or five of this podcast in kind of mid late summer, was with Danny Gonzalez from industrial sage, and they are essentially a video production company that works with the industrial sector. You should go check them out if you're listening and don't know those guys. They're doing really awesome work. But I know they went to Modex last year and I want to say the films like a hundred videos or something like that. They came with some professional equipment, which it doesn't have to be that. I mean, Geez, your iphone eleven or twelve or whatever's got an unbelievable camera at this point, so it doesn't don't need professional equipment. But they interviewed and they might don't know how long they were. My guess is they probably did a lot of five and ten minute interviews with with manufacturing people and learned a ton built relationships created all kinds of great content from that and you know, like they could have just going in them or or you, or whoever, whoever you are. You can go to a trade show and you can do your normal thing, or you can do that too and walk away with so much more. Yeah, absolutely well, Dave, what actionable things should a manufacturing leader who's sitting here listening right now? They can oh man, I gotta, I got to get some of this stuff in motion here and start doing voice of customer work the right way. What where can they start? What can they do? I think starting is the most important thing. You can plan forever and think about it, but I'm a big believer in sort of the lean start up approach or design thinking and learning by doing and just knowing that you're you're not going to be perfect right off the bat, but you're going to get better at it. So you dip your toe in the water and you just you just do it. It's sort of the Nike Mantra. And so how could how do you just start? I think there's a there's a temptation for companies, when they start their voc work to think, oh, okay, this is supposed to generate you know, grow organic growth and innovation. So we're going to go after like new products in new markets, but my recommendation is actually to go after your best customers that know you the best...

...for your, you know, heart aligned products, and try try this process there first. Now the pushback that you're going to get, especially from sales, is we know them. We know them, we know everything about them. We've been into with them for years. We're not going to learn anything new. They told it. We know everything about their prems. Just ignore that, pretend like you know. Just say, okay, well, that's fine, but we're doing it anyway, because I guarantee a hundred percent you there will be new things that come out that you never would have predicted. It just always happens every time you do one of these. And so now to prepare for it. That which is you know, you asked about actionable steps. I mean you could. There's training on on this one that that I kind of utilize. is called new product blueprinting. You can google that and and there's that methodology, which is great. There's other reading that you can do about outcome driven innovation from there's company called stratagem that run by guy named Tony Olwick that has written some books on this. One of them called jobs to be done, I think is downloadable from free from their website. So there's lots of resources. You can kind of just get informed that are informed and find a find this person, this leader, this moderator, you know, you know who that person. It probably is in your company. So they're probably in like, as I said, marketing or product management, product development, and they're probably extroverted. They're not going to be shy about asking questions customers. They don't have to already be customer facing, though. I've seen some of the best people at this and they've never been in front of customers before, but you put them in front of customers and it's actually perfect because they they can kind of play dumb about asking some of those things that others would assumer sort of stupid questions, but they're excellent in the probing and the open ended questioning and you know, it really is effective. So I would say you know actionable, do some reading. If you want to get some training, get some training for a handful people and you know, really just do it. Just start learn by doing right. Advice, and I love that you included some actual resources in there too. Will make sure to link to those in the show notes. So well, Dave Man, this is an awesome conversation. I love these ones where I feel like I'm learning something on the spot, and that's the case. I'm sure our listeners are probably thinking the same thing. So really appreciate you doing this pleasure. Loved it. Cool tell our audience how they can get in touch with you where they can learn more about you and loomis marketing as well as your new book. Yeah, absolutely. So. There's a website for loomas marketing. It's at Lomas Marketingcom, Lomas marketing and I'm at Dave at Loomis MARKETINGCOM. Anybody can feel free to email me at any time with Qa. Whatever the book is is about serving others, because I my philosophy about business is that that's what why we're in business and it's just most successful companies really that's what they do, and I'm like that myself too. So you know, feel free to reach out. I just I love, you know, just kind of talking to people and learning things and I will share what I know and resources and networks and things like that. As far as the book, it's up on Amazon now in the candle addition, if you want it to have a different Ereader, you get the kindle APP for that. And then there's a paperback version the one I held up earlier, and it's I had a lot of fun with it. I think I' look forward to feedback. If it is helpful people, that would be great beautiful. Well, like to...

...say thank you once again to our sponsor, cadenus part solutions, for helping make this episode possible, and Dave, thanks again for taking the time to join me today. You are very welcome. Welcome, thanks, thanks so much for having me. As for the rest of you, I hope to catch you on the next episode of the Manufacturing Executive. You've been listening to the manufacturing executive podcast. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you'd like to learn more about industrial marketing and sales strategy, you'll find an ever expanding collection of articles, videos, guides and tools specifically for B Tob Manufacturers at Gorilla Seventy sixcom learn thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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