The Manufacturing Executive
The Manufacturing Executive

Episode · 11 months ago

Why Voice of Customer is Essential in Marketing w/ Dave Loomis


What is Voice of Customer? How can Voice of Customer be used to curate tailored content across your industry? Why is this important?

These are a few of the many questions answered on today’s show with industry expert, Dave Loomis.

In this episode, Joe Sullivan of Gorilla 76 speaks with Dave Loomis, President of Loomis Marketing on episode 28 of The Manufacturing Executive podcast. Our dynamic conversation covered...

  • How do you facilitate a voice of customer meeting?
  • What are the benefits of a voice of customer meeting?
  • Understanding the pain customers feel and ideal outcomes

Want more resources and information?

For more ways to serve others as an individual or business, Dave has written a book called Marketing Is Everything We Do. Dave also suggests checking out New Product Blueprinting by Dan Adams and Jobs to Be Done by Tony Ulwick.

To hear more interviews like this one, subscribe to The Manufacturing Executive podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

We tend to think that we'reconsideredwe're perceived as smart by the things we say, but I think thateven more powerful is the questions that we ask. Welcome to the manufacturing executivepodcast, where we explore the strategies and experiences that aredriving midsize manufacturers. FORARD here you'll discover new insights frompassionate manufacturing leaders who have compelling stories to share abouttheir successes and struggles and you'll learn from btob sales andmarketing experts about how to apply actionable business developmentstrategies inside your business. Let's get into the show you need to listen to your customers.It's almost become a cliche statement. Pay attention to their needs,ascropheedback. Look for confirmation that what you're doing for them isactually providing value. Well, Du Right, if you're not doing that muchyou're, probably not running a very successful business in the first place.So how can you go a level deeper in gathering those customer insights andreally mine for what lies beneath the surface? I'm talking about the thingsyou couldn't have assumed matter to them, because those things could haveonly been born inside your customers brains and come out of your customersmouths. Well, today, it will be talking about how to uncover those things in avery intentional way and well also talk about how doing so will impact yourability to better serve your customers will simultaneously arming you withIntel that will influence both product, RND and marketing. Our guess today isan expert in this line of work, which he refers to as voice of customer orVOC. Dave Lumus is president of lumas marketing. Llc He's a consultant coach,writer and Speaker on the topics of innovation, branding leadership andpersonal growth. Dave is also an expert project manager, Helping Large BTBcompanies navigate digital transformation. After attendingnorthwestern University Dave began his career Leo Burnett Advertising.Following an MBA from northwestern's Kalogue School of Management, he wenton to roles in consulting a multibillion dollar public, holdingcompany innovation, training and public relations over the course of his careerDave, his had the opportunity to work with many of the world's best knowncompanies, especially manufacturers, including do de Pont Ge good year,Hamilton, beach brands, heister Yale, IBM, ITW, Motorola, Ashkosh, sait,Gobain, Steris and Xerox. Quite the resume there Dave works and lives. Inchagrin, falls, Ohio Dave, welcome to the show. Thank you happy to be here.Awesome. Well Dave. I know you've got some exciting news that I'd love foryou to share with our listeners right away. Is Your Book just hit print? Iguess I just went, live and and available to to now purchase, which isa big milestone in your career. I would imagine that is true. Literally justthis. Last weekend we op Bon Amazon in Ebook and paperback format, and it was a labor, a Labor of love for sure kindof the culmination of a lot of years of thinking through different models andapproaches and and kind of my own business philosophy, and I felt like itreally jelled for me in the last few years, and even especially this year,you know kind of in the year of Covid and I think a lot of we all had time Odo a lot of sinking and planning. Also so I was, I was busy workwise, but alsokind of set aside some time to do this project that I've been wanting to dofor a long time. So I'm very excited about it. Well, what's the name of thebook and what's t it about it's called marketing, is everything we do it's inthe back drop here, but marketing is everything we do. Hous serving othersbring success in business and in life...

...and there's a little kind of descriptorat the bottom. Inspirational outlooks, practical approaches, useful tools, soit's kind of a combination of personal stories about kind of successes andalso things that I' learned the hard way and some practical tools that IA'vedeveloped over the years. That kind of help people think, through kind of anice, logical, sequential way to think about marketing, especially in the btobspace, so especially for your listeners very appropriate in terms of themanufacturing world and innovation, new product development, Voice of customeretc. That's great, I think something fresh on that topic is, is awesome right now, so make sure togo check that IU will mention, mention it again at the end of the episode makesure everybody has a link to it in the show notes as well, so well, congratson that. Thank you well Dave, you know. Is We get into this episode here? Youknow we're going to talk about this topic of Voice of customer and or often you know just referred to asVOC, which is a topic some people listening may know about. Frankly, Ieven as a marketing guy, you know, I heard VOC and I thought of omissionsfrom paint as we work with. You know: PEOP companies in the manufacturingspace and industrial codings organic compound yeah. There you go soyou probably run into that all the time and conflicting Google searches andthings. But you know I think, most companies when they think of VLC,whether they know or don't know what that means, which You'R I' Gn have youclarify in just a second, they think they're, maybe doing vocwork by justhaving conversations with customers and it's you know doing it right as I'velearned from reading things that you have writtenand a couple conversations we've had it's deeper, it goes deeper than thatand there's a lot more to it, which is is W. I've got you here to sort ofbreak it down today. So could you start by defining what exactly voice ofcustomor means and also tell us how it's different from just conductingordinary customer conversations? Yeah Great Question: I think that, as yousuggested, most companies out there and most leaders of those companies areunder the impression that they're doing voice of customer work. The reason whyeveryone has that impression is because they're in contact with their customersall the time they have sales people out there on the streets. They have serviceforces that are Yo, know repairing things or making sure things workengineering's going out there, whatever it is, whoever it is. There's customerservice people on the line now on zoom constantly so and then many times those people that are comingcontact with customers are bringing back information and theyre, and sothere's this idea that yeah we do. We do surveys, we do not promoter score.We do. We do outreach, we're talking to people all the time, they're comingback with ideas from the customers and that's great we're doing VOC. So that'sthe reason why people think that it's being done, the reason why I don'tthink that it's being done very well or in very many places is because I thinkit's a very. It needs to be a very specific process to be effective. Andwhat I mean by that is that the meeting itself, you know sort of traditionalvoice of customer meeting, I think, can and should be very specific in itsintent and orchestrated in a very specific way and when it is the kind offeedback that we get... extremely different than the kind offeedback we get just on an everyday basis from just sort of being aware andlistening and bringing things back very, very different, and I think it can bethe difference between maybe little incremental improvements and therefore incremental share. Ganand real innovation break throughinnovation disruption or eeven small things that can just make a differencein it's in your business and differenty from competition. T T that in those inthat orchestrated meeting and which I can tell you more about that's wherethese these little gems can come out. So what I'm hearing from you is thatthere is an intentional process that should be put in play here, rather thanjust keeping your ears open and picking up little nuggets here and there in thecourse of your daily work with your customers, and if that's I seenoddingis that, if that's the case, you ow, is there a magic racipy for doing voceffectively or is there a you mentioned? The meeting is: What does that looklike you t tell our listeners what it what it looks like to. You knowschedule a VOC meeting. The way it should be done, how that plays out whatinformation you're trying to gather in that setting yeah. Usually when somebody asks me somethingabout, is there a magic recipe for almost anything? My answers usuallyknow, and then you know, there's some long conversation about the you knowsort of subtleties of this and that I think my answers. Yes, I think there isa magic recipe. To be honest, it's not even rocket it's not rocket scienceeither. I think you need to make an appointment with your with yourcustomers and it can be for an hour hour and a halfin person when we get back to meeting in person, but can be done very easilyover zoom or Webbex or remotely, and the meeting is set up as discovery in avery specific way and saying hey. We are doing some voice of customer workdiscovery, but it's going to be different than what you might beexpecting this. Is You the manufacture, speaking to your customer, so you say:Look we promise not to sell in this meeting and we promise not to solve we're going to have a few people we'regoing to have somebody from marketing a technical person. Perhaps ourrelationship manager a salesperson there, but we promise not to sellourselv and we promise not to go down a list of questions that we have preparedabout. What we think might be issues you're having it's going to becompletely open, ended and we're going to give you a chance to talk about whatyou want to talk about now. The topic should be fairly focused, so I wouldsay that you want to pick sort of an application segment. So, instead ofsaying, oh I'm just going to talk to my big customers where they are or thisregion. Or what have you say? Oh I'm going to talk to my customers that areusing our product in this particular way, because they're going to havesimilar issues. So if you're going to be talking to one of them, O you'reexplicit with them. When you start the meeting that this is what we're goingto we're going to be talking about, and we're going to be talking aboutproblems that you're having with like and then from then it's it's open,ended, you're, saying so tell us about issues that you're having yourchallenges that you're having Yiu could be anything. It could be anythinghaving to do with the beginning middle or end of the process. It could beanything having to do with the product itself or even the buying process orthe you know it's up to you. What's the issue you talk to them, they answer. You can't predict what the what any ofthese issues are really going to be,...

...and then something I can talk about alittle bit later or more, if you're interested is what you're looking forwhen they bring up a problem, you're going to be looking for the outcomethat there the desired outcome that they are that they're after and the reason whywe're looking for that is that you're going to hear a lot of ideas. Like Isaid before from customers, we all get them. You should do this. You should dothis. You should add this should hadd this button on the front you should youknow, you know, increase the horse power. You should do whatever thereason they're suggesting. That is because they want an outcome. They want whatever you're, providing to dosomething a little differently for them or to have a different outcome. Youwant to understand that outcome. You want to make note of their idea of howto accomplish it, but it's your business, we're the experts right andhow to do that, and so in a lot of ways, we're interested inwhat the customer has to suggest, but that m might not be the way that we endup solving it, and so we want to we don't understand. We don't want theiridea annecessarily, we want their desired outcome. Well, you know, likeyou and I are as marketing consultants, it's our job to be the expertpractitioner right. Just as you don't go into your doctor's office and sayI'm having this problem. Here's what I want you to do. You know you go therebecause yeah that he or she can help you solve that problem, but they alsohave the expertise to evaluate and prescribe and make surethat what they prescribe is going to helpyou reach your desire outcome. So I really like, from that perspective,the approach- and I imagine the benefits of doing this- are there aremany I'm sitting here thinking about as you're speaking and I'm thinking, okay.Well, one! You can figure out how to better serve this particular customerthat you're talking to to your you're, essentially doing market research,where you're going to start to identify trends about what buyers like this,probably actually care about the most which some of those things tha, Iimagine are revealing to you and then and then that in turn is going toimpact rnd, an product development, probablydepending on what type of company you are. It's probably also going to affectyour marketing, because if you understand the pains and and desiredoutcomes of your customer- and you see trends across that, you know how tocater your messaging accordingly right, yeah, that's a your last point isreally interesting, you're, absolutely dead. On on all the points you justmade, the last one is interesting about the impact on marketing and one of theone of the elements that I suggest partof recipe for that VOC meeting isto have somebody take notes, verbatum notes of what you're asking and what they'resaying and the probing and the in the conversation and actually display themon the screen, while you're, while you're taking the notes or project them.If you're in a conference room or what have you there's some benefits to thatone is, if you've ever been in a meeting where you're collaboratingaround a document. Doesn't it feel a little bit different like you're?Looking at it Youre, you can look at it being typed up there and you say no,not quite that put this here or say you know, I didn't mean exactly that, butyou're putting things in the way the customer says it a lot of times,especially in industry. We have jargon, we have internal words for the thingsthat we make and the way they work and what they solve. The customer mayor maynot use those terms. They use the terms that they use, because it's a tool forthem getting a job done, and if we can...

...capture verbatum the pain that theyfeel and what Thei'r you know how they feel about on what they're looking forand then we can later mind that for marketing verbage, then then we'respeaking to them in their language. We're not like peppering them. With ourjargon, you know when we go to sell whatever it is, we innovate and create,and so it really is a full circle process that were starting here. Yeah,that's a really smart and powerful point there, and you know it s, I thinkof all the times when I've coached a new employeeet at our firm WHO's,talking to a client and they're using acronym marketing, acanyms and wordsthat mean something inside our firm and we use every day. But customersn't talkthat way. Then man think of something that way. Hence. Hence the topic rightVoice of customer trying to understand how they speak and how they talk aboutthings right. They may have their own acronyms, and this comes or all thetime is that they are speaking to us and they're, using some terminologythat we might not be familiar a with because they're talking about theirprocess now, instead of relationship managers that have known that customerfor a long time, they're much less apt t to say Oh time out what is CDL standsfor again. You know because they're supposed to know right and that atleast that's the way they feel, but another part of the recipe of VOC isaskd. You know, don't there's no stupid question from us, because what we'redoing is we're authentically trying to understand what the issue is, because we want to solve it. We're going to take a really quickbreak here to outpay the bills. So two thousand and twenty has been a weirdyear. Industries are facing new challenges as we navigate life withouttrade shows events and in person meetings. Many businesses arebolstering their online tools to offer a better experience. WER also making upfor some of those missing trade show leads and that's where Kadinus partsolutions comes in. They help you create a dynamic, Sherabl, CAD catalogethat you put on your website. Designers can preview your products from anyangle and download and the format that they prefer by improving the onlineexperience. Engineers and architects get the data they need for their design,and you get a fresh lead in your marketing pipeline who needs tradeshows anyway, to learn more visit. Part Solutionscom leads yeah. That's that's a great point Davewho, inside of a manufacturing organization or really a company ingeneral, that, knowing that we're speaking to manufactures, where do youthink, should be responsible for conducting these VOC conversations. Ithink that it's a team effort, but but but part of the recipe is that we have.We suggest very, very specific roles for folks that are involved in in VOC.So, for example, I think that leadership of the process works bestwhen it's in it depends on your company what youhave in terms of the roles and what you call people, but it's a marketing roleor product management or product development roll somewhere in thereyou've got somebody who can learn this process well enough to bethe sort of leader or the moderator of the conversation. I'd take somebodyfrom technical side and I' Take Someb. You could take somebody from sales,often a lot of times, it's hard to start o leave those people out becausethey own the you know the customer relationship and so forth. Somebodyother than that moderator can be the notetaker during the meeting and thesalesperson. You have to coach this person to be more of an observer tochime in once in a while, but not just...

...step on the conversation and the wholepart about not selling and not solving is really vital, because when you're asking the customer open,ended, questions and you're, letting them respond, your probing and saying,okay, what else? What are the problems you? Can you need to do enough of thatto get enough sort of out on to the table, but if in the middle of it theysay? Well, you know I'm having a problem with the speed of this machineand the Sales Guy Chime sating goes well. The the X thirty nine dsh fordoes that right now and the customer says Oh really and then that theirtechnical person says ell say more about that, because I wasn't aware thatpretty soon you're in a sales meeting, and then you know you're like Oh, okay,sorry, we took up that. You know twenty five minutes or half an hour. Talkingabout that. You know we'll get back to you. The same thing can happen with atechnical conversation. You know. Oh I'd really like to you know solve thisproblem. Things are getting stuck here on this conveyor when it rounds thiscorner or something the engineer says: Oh really, you know is it what kind ofboxes you know? Can You oh well what if we did this? What if we put a BAFFLLand Pubu okay, yeah you're, solutioning you're, not discovering yeah, so youneed to be. You really need to be disciplined about that and our brainsare probably wired to. You know default to that way of thinking when we're insales or we're a technical person. So you do. I understand why you're sayingyou kind of have to go in there with very clear intentions can and have thattop of mind, communicate that to the person you're speaking with yeah,definitely Davis ther an example or CAS study. Whether or not you use a realyou know. Company name is not important to me, but where you could, you coulddescribe a situation where doing this kind of voice of customer work producedsome kind of significant impact on the organization. Definitely there's a fewin the book, but I won't repeat those I will I'll give you one that is fairlyrecent and and really interesting too, especially for for manufacturers. Soone of my clients that I help with with this voice of customer work is one ofthe larger companies involved in the sterilization space. So theymanufacture equipment and in some parts of the company's solutions andsolutions, meaning liquid that sterilizes cleaners other things, butbut they also have machinery that does this in hospitals and other other a allover really in business. One of their divisions is really interesting becausethey make a product that a lot of people don't know about, or have everheard of, which is it vaporizes hydrogen proxide tosterilize an entire room or space. So little particles of hydrogen proxideget put out into a Room N in a vapor in several hours or overnight, and thenliterally, everything in the entire room is therefore becontaminated. Let'sput that it's the semiscientific word, so this is called VHP, there's anacronhym for you, and so I helped instruct an internal team that lookedexactly like what I just said to you before. There was a marketing person, atechnical person, sales. They were involved and we also talked aboutsegmentation. The way I mentioned it, which was application oriented soinstead of just widenit over all the different ways, that's VHP is usedbecause we're going to hear we would hear all sorts of different issues.Let's concentrate our efforts and focus first on one kind of use case and thisparticular usecase. What that I'm...

...thinking of was animal testing labs, soyou can imagine that there's what that might be like in research inuniversities, research, labs, things like that, and the company had some ideas aboutInov possible innovations, so everything from product tweeks toproduct overhauls, vew products, things like that that would you knowpotentially change the game right and went into do this interviewing, like Imentioned totally open, ended, say no list of questions. Would you like thisfeature? Would you like this feature? What if we did this? Not that at all,just literally just the opposite, and they were very surprised becausethey came out of it not really making any product changes at all. Everybodysaid: Well, we love the product, it's just that it's expensive and we don'thave money in our capital budgets on on an annual basis to buy something like this. However, ifwe were able to lease it, if we were, if you were able to provide a serviceand come in and do this to codecontamination for us that wouldaccomplish the same thing: Remever the outcomes. The outcome is that they wantthei room decontaminated. Not I want a machine to decontaminate, and so by focusing on that outcome andunderstand it and doing it open endedly, they never would have predicted. Theywould have gone in with their list of things to improve and they would haveprobably done an Roi. You know all the all the numbers and theyprobably would have made some changes to the product, but this time they madeproduct changes to service offering, and it's really started a whole wavewithin that area that that has kind of changed change. The company- that'sthat's a powerful example there and shows what could have been had theyjust decided to make assumptions or to or to rely on that tangential feedbackwithout, as you've described digging for the desired outcome. You know. Yes,the customer sort of Ou k just been one off situations, what they think theywant. They're, probably you know you're not going to get the full picture. SoNo, and also we all do this- we lead the witness we've all watched enough.You Know Cork shows to know what that is, it's basically putting words insomeone's mouth and oh I'll bet you're having a problem with this and it'sinteresting as humans. We want to be. You know agreeable to others. So a lotof times we just agree, woh well, yeah. Sure, of course, I guess I am havingproblem with that and then there's conversation about it and especially ifsomebody in a company has kind of a et project or idea I guarantee. If theywent out to the field and Aske questions, they could definitely comeback and say Yep. I definitely verified this validated at customers. All said,they'd love this, you know, but you lend ta witness yeah well, leadingthe witness, I think, can have the effect of almost insecurity for you, asyou know, saying. Oh I'M GOINNA sue I've seen this before. So I'm justgoingtao assume this is a problem, I'll probably sound smart because I'll sound,smarter because I'm recognizing something that they probably areexperiencing and then they're going to say. Oh my gosh, yes, but in reality,like you, said people wind up being agreeable, whereas if you go in andas'k the open ended, question say like what is the issue you're having wellnow, instead of demonstrating that...'re a know at all you'redemonstrating that you're here to listen to them? So I think that has a areally positive impact as well most definitely, I think we tend to think that we'reconsideredwe're perceived as smart by the things we say, but I think thateven more powerful is the questions that we ask and well we listen and how well welisten yeah, because it really comes across that that we care and that we'rereally we're really there to solve. The problem. Tell you th what you hearafter these meetings. What customers say to you is astounding, I mean theysay. Oh my God, this was an amazing meeting. We've never had a meeting likethis someone's. Finally really listening to us, and I know that soundscompletely cliche like I made it up and it's in a role play video or somethinglike that. But honestly we hear that all the time I believe it well. Let'ssee here Dave shipped gears for a second here. You know most listeners ofthis show being manufacturing. People spend plenty of time at trade shows nowtwo thousand and twenty, of course, is the exexception as we're sitting herein early December of two thousand and twenty recording this and the firsthalf o next year. We can probably assume it's going to be largely thesame, but you know trade chills will come back around and I'll probably lookdifferent and everything, but Theyre Theyre, I'm sure they're not goneforever, and I know you've mentioned that you're, a fan of using trade showsto conduct voc work and I was curious if you could speak to that. For amoment. Absolutely I am a big fan of trade shows. I think there was probablya while where people thought. Oh, these are kind of a dinosaur and especiallyif you're, a manufacturer and it's a larger trade show it's expensive. Imean honestly the Price Tag, and you know this too, I'm sure for helping outsome of your clients. It can be astronomical and when othersespecially say a CEO or board of directors- or you know, private equityor anyone comes in and like put some magnifying glass over the financialsthey're, going to see this line item and say: Do we really need to do thisand you know what can we do instead or we'll? Do it every other year or we'll? Just scrap it and you know, putthe money elsewhere, but I really a'm a big Fan. Trade shows because it brings peopletogether that Yo have a common industry, need application Etca, and it is thisinteresting combination of customers and vendors and supplier. So there's awhole value chain, usually that's represented either in the boots or inisles or both so for VOC at these. I think it can range. You know, dependingon what you want to do from pretty formal to extremely informal, prettyformal, since people are colocated that maybe people you want to talk to youcan get, you can get a suit at a hotel, room or or a conference room at thatshow and do a focus group and conducted in the same way that you do this open,ended work or you can just get a room and schedule customers to come in. Youknow one after the other just set the times up to do these. You know moreindepth one on one or a couple: People a couple: PEOPLE VOC meetings or lastFebruary and Vegas at the world of concrete show, which is a great one. Iconducted VOC in the my client Pooth,... people came by and either I hadappointments or I got just people on the fly. Who would be willing to sitdown for a few minutes and talk to US get some amazing insight from them and then finally, another sort of Ithink, underutilized kind of approach would be you know. Sometimes yourcompetitors are there and you know you can get some good competitorintelligence during trade shows as well, either from those competitor booths orfrom you know, their custom, competitiv customers, and so I've been prettysuccessful. With some of that as well yeah. I think it's a really greatperspective on what to do with trade shows, because it seems to be a bigdebate and I think especially right now are theye worth going to and who knowswhat they're going to look like when they come come back around. But youknow so many companies go there with the goal of scanning lots of badges,and you know trying to build, build a list of people who probably don'tmostly want to hear from you on the sales front. I have a lot of clientswho have had a lot of success in traic, SOS, especially with the ones who arein really gich trade shows. But what a great opportunity to do exactly whatyou're describing to just talk to people, you kn a you're buildingrelationships with people in a way that's very different than when you'retrying to sell them. Something because their guard is down, you know, and ifyou make it clear that I am trying to gather research on the industry- andyou know the other thing you can do my marketing brains always on Ecaue- I'm amarketing guy here, but it what a great opportunity for you to create somecontent with your potential future customers, or at least people who arethe peers of your potential future customers to be able to share theseinsights. You know one one tangible example. I can give you one of theearliest interviews. I think I was episode. Four or five of this podcastin kind of midlate summer was with Danny Gonzalaz from industrial sage,and they are essentially a video production company that works with theindustrial sector. You should go check them out if you're, listening and don'tknow those guys, they're doing really awesome work, but I know they went toModex last year and I want to say these filmed like a hundred videos orsomething like that. They came with some professional equipment. US Itdoesn't have to be that I mean Jeez, your ephone, eleven or twelve orwhatever has got unbelievable camera at this point I so it doesn't ever needprofessional equipment, but they interviewed, and they I don't know howlong they were. My guess is. They probably did a lot of five and tenminute interviews with with manufacturing people and learn. O tonbuilt relationships created all kinds of great content from that, and youknow like they could have just gottn in dem or or you or whoever, whoever youare. You can go to a trade show and you can do your normal thing or you can dothat too, and walk away with so much more yeah. Absolutely well Dave. Whatactionable things should a manufacturing leader who's sitting herelistening right now thinking, Oh man, I got ta. I got to get some of this stuffin motion here and start doing. voiceof customer work the right way. Where can they start? What can they do? I think starting is the most importantthing you can plan forever and think about it, but I'm a big believer insort of the lean, startup approach or design, thinking and learning by doing,and just knowing that you're you're not going to be perfect right off the batbut you're going to get better at it. So you dip your toe in the water andyou just you just do it it's sort of the Nike Mantra, and so how could? Howdo you just start? I think there's a there's a temptation for companies whenthey start their voc work to think. Oh okay, this is supposed to generate. Youknow: Gro Organic Growth and innovation, so we're going to go after like newproducts in new markets, but my recommendation is actually to go afteryour best customers that know you the... for your. You know: Hearte Ligne products andtrust. Try this process there. First now the push fact that you're going toget especially from sales is we know them. We know them. We knoweverything about them. We've been Indo with them for years, we're not going tolearn anything new. They told it, we know everything about the prems. Justignore that pretend, like you know, just say: Okay! Well, that's fine, butwe're doing it anyway, because I guarantee hundred percent you therewill be new things that come out that you never would have predicted. It justalways happens every time you do one of theses and so now to prepare for it,which is you know you asked about actionable steps. Imean you could there's training on on this one that that I kindf utilize iscalled new product blueprinting. You can google, that and and there's thatmethodology, which is great, there's other reading- that you can do aboutoutcome. Driven innovation from there's company called Strategi ind that run byguy named Tony Olick that has written some books on this. One of them calledjobs to be done, I think, is downloadable for free from theirwebsite. So there's lots of resources. You can kind of just get informed thatare informed and find a find this person this leader, this moderator, youknow you know who that person probably is in your company, so they're,probably in like, as I said, marketing or product management, practevelopmentand they're, probably extroverted they're not going to be shy aboutasking questions customers. They don't have to already be customer facing,though I've seen some of the best people at this and they've never beenin front of customers before, but you put them in front of customers and it'sactually perfect because they can kind of play dumb about asking some of thosethings that others would assume or sort of stupid questions, but they'reexcellent in the Probang and the openended questioning- and you know itreally is effective. So I would say you know, actionable do some reading if youwant to get some training, get some training for handful people, and youknow really just do it. Just start learn by doing rigt advice,and I love that you o included some actual resources in there too will makesure tho link to those in the show notes. So well Dave Man. This is an awesomeconversation. I love these ones where I feel like I'm learning something on thespot and if that's the case, I'm sure our listeners are probably thinking thesame thing so really appreciate you doing this pleasure loved it cool wlltell our audience how they can get in touch with you, where they can learnmore about you and Lumas Marketing, as well as your new book yeah. Absolutely so, there's a websitefor alumus marketing, it's at Mooms Marketingcom, LO MIS marketing and I'mat Dave at Lumos MARKETINGCOM. Anybody can feel free to email me at any timewith QNA. Whatever the book is is about serving others, because I I myphilosophy about business. Is that that's what why we're in business andTis most successful companies really that's what they do and I'm like thatmyself too, so you know, feel free to reach out. I just I loveyou know just kind of talking to people and learning things, and I share what Iknow and resources and networks and things like that. As far as the book,it's up on Amazon now in the cadal edition, if you want t to have adifferent e reader, you get the kindol apt for that and then there's paperbackversion, the one I held up earlier and it's I had a lot of fun with it. Ithink I' look forward to feedback if it... helpful people that would be great beautiful, but I like to say thank youonce again to our sponsor cadinus part solutions for helping make this episodepossible and Dave thanks again for taking the time to join me today. You are very well Tom. Welcome thanksthanks, so much for having me. As for the rest of you, I hope to catch you onthe next episode of the MNUFACTURING executive. You've been listening to themanufacturing executive podcast to ensure that you never missed an episodesubscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If youd like to learnmore about industrial marketing and sale strategy, you'll find an everexpanding collection of articles, videos guides and tools, specificallyfor B, to B manufactured at Grilla. Seventy sixcom flash warn. Thank you somuch to listening until next time.

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