The Manufacturing Executive
The Manufacturing Executive

Episode · 1 year ago

Why Voice of Customer is Essential in Marketing w/ Dave Loomis

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

What is Voice of Customer? How can Voice of Customer be used to curate tailored content across your industry? Why is this important?

These are a few of the many questions answered on today’s show with industry expert, Dave Loomis.

In this episode, Joe Sullivan of Gorilla 76 speaks with Dave Loomis, President of Loomis Marketing on episode 28 of The Manufacturing Executive podcast. Our dynamic conversation covered...

  • How do you facilitate a voice of customer meeting?
  • What are the benefits of a voice of customer meeting?
  • Understanding the pain customers feel and ideal outcomes

Want more resources and information?

For more ways to serve others as an individual or business, Dave has written a book called Marketing Is Everything We Do. Dave also suggests checking out New Product Blueprinting by Dan Adams and Jobs to Be Done by Tony Ulwick.

To hear more interviews like this one, subscribe to The Manufacturing Executive podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

We tend to think that we're considered, we're perceived as smart, by the things we say, but I thinkthat even more powerful is the questions that we ask. Welcome to the manufacturingexecutive podcast, where we explore the strategies and experiences that are driving mid sizemanufacturers forward. Here you'll discover new insights from passionate manufacturing leaders who have compellingstories to share about their successes and struggles, and you'll learn from B tob salesand marketing experts about how to apply actionable business development strategies inside your business. Let's get into the show. You need to listen to your customers.It's almost become a cliche statement. Pay attention to their needs, ask forfeedback, look for confirmation that what you're doing for them is actually providing value. Will due right. If you're not doing that much, you're probably notrunning a very successful business in the first place. So how can you goa level deeper in gathering those customer insights and really mine for what lies beneaththe surface? I'm talking about the things you couldn't have assumed matter to them, because those things could have only been born inside your customers brains and comeout of your customers mouths. Well, today it will be talking about howto UNCO cover those things in a very intentional way, and we'll also talkabout how doing so will impact your ability to better serve your customers, willsimultaneously arming you with Intel that will influence both product rd and marketing. Ourguests today is an expert in this line of work, which he refers toas Voice of customer, or VOC Dave loomis is president of loomis marketing LLC. He's a consultant, coach, writer and Speaker on the topics of innovation, branding, leadership and personal growth. Dave is also an expert project managerhelping large BB companies navigate digital transformation. After attending northwestern university, Dave beganhis career at Leo Burnett Advertising. Following an MBA from northwestern's Kellogg School ofManagement, he went on too rolls and consulting a multibillion dollar public holding companyinnovation, training and public relations. Over the course of his career, Daveis had the opportunity to work with many of the world's best known companies,especially manufacturers, including Dow, Dupont, GE, goodyear, Hamilton, beachbrands, heister Yale Ibm ITW, Motorola, Oshkosh, St Cobain, Steris andXerox. Quite the resume there. Dave works and lives in Chagrin Falls, Ohio. Dave, welcome to the show. Thank you, happy tobe here. Awesome. Well, Dave, I know you've got some exciting newsthat I'd love for you to share with our listeners right away. IsYour Book just hit print? I guess I just want live and available tonow purchase, which is a big milestone in your career. I would imaginethat is true. It literally just this last weekend went up on Amazon inEbook and paperback format, and it was a labor, a Labor of lovefor sure, kind of the culmination of a lot of years of thinking throughdifferent models and approaches and and kind of my own business philosophy, and Ifelt like it really gelled for me in the last few years and even especiallythis year, you know, kind of in the year of Covid and Ithink a lot of we all had time to do a lot of thinking andplanning also, so I was I was busy work wise, but also kindof set aside some time to do this project that I've been wanted to dofor a long time. Some very excited about it. What's the name ofthe book and was it? What's it about? It's called marketing is everythingwe do. It's in the back drop here, but marketing is everything wedo, how serving others bring success in...

...business and in life, and there'sa little kind of descripture at the bottom, inspirational outlooks, practical approaches, usefultools. So it's kind of a combination of personal stories about kind ofsuccesses and also things that I've learned the hard way and some practical tools thatI've developed over the years that kind of help people think through kind of anice, logical, sequential way to think about marketing, especially in the BobSpace. So especially for your listeners, very appropriate in terms of the manufacturingworld and innovation, new product development, Voice of customer etc. That's great. I think something fresh on that topic is is awesome right now, somake sure to go check that out. Will mention mention it again at theend of the episode. Make sure everybody has a link to it in theshow notes as well. So we'll congrats on that. Thank you well,Dave. You know is we get into this episode here. You know we'regoing to talk about this topic of Voice of customer and or often, youknow, just referred to as VOC, which is a topic some people listeningmay know about. Frankly, I even, as a marketing guy, you know, I heard voc and I thought of emissions from paint, as wework with, you know, people companies in the manufacturing space and industrial codings. Actually no organic compounds. Yeah, there you go it. So youprobably run into that all the time, conflicting Google searches and things. Butyou know, I think most companies, when they think of VOC, whetherthey know or don't know what that means, which your I'Ma have you clarify itjust a second, they think they're maybe doing voc work by just havingconversations with customers and it's, you know, doing it right. As I've learnedfrom reading things that you have written and a couple conversations we've had,it's deeper. It goes deeper than that and is a lot more to it, which is why I've got you here to sort of break it down today. So could you start by defining what exactly voice of customer means and alsotell us how it's different from just conducting ordinary customer conversations. Yeah, greatquestion. I think that, as you suggested, most companies out there andmost leaders of those companies are under the impression that they're doing voice of customerwork. The reason why everyone has that impression is because they're in contact withtheir customers all the time. They have sales people out there on the streets, they have service forces that are repairing things or making sure things work,engineering is going out there, whatever it is, whoever it is, there'scustomer service people on the line now on zoom, constantly. So and thenmany times those people that are coming contact with customers are bringing back information andthere and so there's this idea that, yeah, we do we do surveys, we do net promoter score, we do we do outreach. We're talkingto people all the time. They're coming back with ideas from the customers andthat's great. We're doing voc so that's the reason why people think that it'sbeing done. The reason why I don't think that it's being done very wellor in very many places is because I think it's a very it needs tobe a very specific process to be effective, and what I mean by that isthat the meeting itself, you know, it is sort of traditional voice ofcustomer meeting. I think can and should be very specific in its intentand orchestrated in a very specific way, and when it is, the kindof feedback that we get is extremely different...

...than the kind of feedback we getjust on an everyday basis from just sort of being aware and listening and bringingthings back very, very different, and I think it can be the differencebetween maybe little incremental improvements and therefore incremental share gain and real innovation, breakthrough, innovation, disruption or even small things that can just make a difference init's in you, in Your Business and differentially from competition that in those inthat orchestrated meeting and which I can tell you more about. That's where thesethese little gems can come out. What I'm hearing from you is that thereis an intentional process that should be put in play here rather than just keepingyour ears open and picking up little nuggets here and there in the course ofyour daily work with your customers. And if that's I see nodding is isthat? If that's the case, is there a magic recipe for doing voceffectively, or is there a you mentioned the meeting is what does that looklike? Tell tell our listeners what it what it looks like to you know, schedule a VOC meeting the way it should be done, how that playsout, what information you're trying to gather in that setting. Yeah, usuallywhen somebody asks me something about is there a magic recipe for almost anything,my answer is usually no and then, you know, there's some long conversationabout the you know, sort of subtleties of this and that. I thinkmy answer is yes, I think there is a magic recipe. To behonest, it's not even rocket it's not rocket science either. I think youneed to make an appointment with your with your customers, and it can befor an hour, hour and a half in person. When we get backto meeting in person, but can be done very easily over zoom or Webexor remotely. And the meeting is set up as discovery in a very specificway and saying hey, we are doing some voice of customer work discovery,but it's going to be different than than what you might be expecting. Thisis you, the manufacture speaking to your customer. So you say, look, we promise not to sell in this meeting and we promise not to solve. We're going to have a few people. We're going to have somebody from marketing, a technical person, perhaps our relationship manager, our salesperson there,but we promise not to sell or solve and we promised not to go downa list of questions that we have prepared about what we think might be issuesyou're having. It's going to be completely open ended and we're going to giveyou a chance to talk about what you want to talk about. Now thetopic should be fairly focused. So I would say that you want to picksort of an application segment. So instead of saying, Oh, I'm justgoing to talk to my big customers where they are or this region or whathave you, say, Oh, I'm going to talk to my customers thatare using our product in this particular way, because they're going to have similar issues. So if you're going to be talking to one of them, youyou're explicit with them when you start the meeting that this is what we're goingto we're going to be talking about and we're going to be talking about problemsthat you're having with blank and then from them. It's it's open ended,you're saying. So tell us about issues that you're having our challenges that you'rehaving. It could be anything. It to be anything having to do withthe beginning, mental or end of the process. It could be anything havingto do with the product itself or even the buying process or the you know, it's up to you. What's the issue? You talk to them,they answer and you can't predict what they what any of these issues are reallygoing to be. And then something I...

...can talk about a little bit lateror more if you're interested, is what you're looking for when they bring upa problem. You're going to be looking for the outcome that they're the desiredoutcome that they are, that they're after, and the reason why we're looking forthat is that you're going to hear a lot of ideas, like Isaid before, from customers. We all get them. You should do this, you should do this, you should add this, should add this buttonon the front, you should, you know, you know, increase thehorse power, you should do whatever. The reason they're suggesting that is becausethey want an outcome. They want whatever you're providing to do something a littledifferently for them or they have a different outcome. You want to understand thatoutcome. You want to make note of their idea of how to accomplish it, but it's your business. We're the experts right and how to do that. And so in a lot of ways we're interested in what the customer hasto suggest, but that might might not be the way that we end upsolving it, and so we want to we don't understand, we don't wanttheir idea and necessarily we want their desired outcome. Well, you know,like you and I are as marketing consultants, it's our job to be the expertpractitioner, right, just as you don't go into your doctor's office andsay, I'm having this problem, here's what I want you to do.You go there because, yeah, that he or she can help you solvethat problem, but they also have the expertise to evaluate and prescribe and makesure that what they prescribe is going to help you reach your desired outcome.So I really like, from that perspective, the approach and I imagine the benefitsof doing this are. There are many. I'm sitting here thinking aboutas you're speaking and I'm thinking, okay, well, one you can figure outhow to better serve this particular customer that you're talking to to your you'reessentially doing market research where you're going to start to identify trends about what buyerslike this probably actually care about the most, which some of those things, Iimagine, are revealing to you. And then and then that in turnis going to impact R and D and product development. Probably, depending onwhat type of company you are, it's probably also going to affect your marketing, because if you understand the pains and and desired outcomes of your customer andyou see trends across that, you know how to cater your messaging accordingly.Right. Yeah, that's a your last point is really interesting. You're absolutelydead on on all the points you just made. The last one is interestingabout the impact on marketing, and one of the one of the elements thatI suggest, part of that recipe for that VOC meeting is to have somebodytake notes, verbatim notes of what you're asking and what they're saying and theprobing and the and the conversation and and actually display them on the screen whileyou're while you're taking the notes, or project them if you're in a conferenceroom or what have you. There's some benefits to that. One is,if you've ever been in a meeting where you're collaborating around a document? Doesn'tit feel a little bit different? Like you're looking at it, you're youcan look at it being typed up there and you say no, not quitethat, put this here, or say, you know, I didn't mean exactlythat, but you're putting things in the way the customer says it.A lot of times, especially in industry, we have jargon, we have internalwords for the things that we make and the way they work and whatthey solved. The customer may or may not use those terms. They usethe terms that they use because it's a tool for them getting a job done. And if we can capture verbatim the...

...pain that they feel and what they'reyou know, how they feel about and what they're looking for, and thenwe can later mine that for marketing verbiage, then then we're speaking to them intheir language. We're not like peppering them with our jargon. You know, when we go to sell whatever it is, we innovate and create,and so it really is a full circle process that we're starting here. Yeah, that's a really smart and powerful point there, and you know, it'sI think of all the times when I've coached a new employee at our firmWHO's talking to a client and they're using acronym, marketing acronyms and and wordsthat mean something inside our firm and we use every day. But customersn't talkthat way. They think of something that way. Hence hence the topic rightVoice of customer, trying to understand how they speak and how they talk aboutthings. Right, they may have their own acronyms, and this comes allthe time. Is that they are speaking to us and they're using some terminologythat we might not be familiar at with because they're talking about their process.Now, instead of relationship managers that have known that customer for a long time, they're much less apt to just say, Oh, time out, what isCDL stand for? Again, you know, because they're supposed to knowright, and that, at least that's the way they feel. But anotherpart of the recipe of VOC is ask, you know, don't. There's nostupid question from us, because what we're doing is we're authentically trying tounderstand what the issue is because we want to solve it. We're going totake a really quick break here to help pay the bills. So two thousandand twenty has been a weird year. Industries are facing new challenges as wenavigate life without trade shows, events and in person meetings. Many businesses arebolstering their online tools to offer a better experience. Will also making up forsome of those missing trade show leads, and that's where codemist part solutions comesin. They help you create a dynamic, sharable cad catalog that you put onyour website. Designers can preview your products from any angle and download andthe format that they prefer. By improving the online experience, engineers and architectsget the data they need for their design and you get a fresh lead inyour marketing pipeline. Who Needs Trade shows anyway? To learn more, visitpart solutionscom leads. Yeah, that's that's a great point. Dave. WHOinside of a manufacturing organization, or really a company in general, but knowingthat we're speaking to manufacturers here, do you think should be responsible for conductingthese VOC conversations? I think that it's a team effort. But, but, but part of the recipe is that we have we suggest very, veryspecific roles for folks that are involved in in VOC. So, for example, I think that leadership of the process works best when it's in it dependson your company what you have in terms of the rolls and what you callpeople, but it's a marketing role or product management or product development roll,somewhere in there you've got somebody who can learn this process well enough to bethe sort of leader or the moderator of the conversation. I'd take somebody fromtechnical side and I'd take some I you could take somebody from sales. Often, a lot of times it's hard to sort of leave those people out becausethey own the you know, the customer relationship and so forth. Somebody otherthan that moderator can be the note taker during the meeting and the salesperson.You have to coach this person to be more of an observer, to chimein once in a while, but not...

...to step on the conversation. Andthe whole part about not selling and not solving is really vital because when you'reasking the customer open ended questions and you're letting them respond, your probing andsaying, okay, what else, what are the problems you have? Youneed to do enough of that to get enough sort of out onto the table. But if in the middle of it. They say well, you know,I'm having a problem with the speed of this machine, and the salesguide chimes saying goes, well, the x thirty nine forward does that rightnow, and the customer says, Oh really, and then that their technicalperson says, tell say more about that, because I wasn't aware that pretty soonyou're in a sales meeting and then, you know, you're like, Oh, okay, sorry, we took up that, you know, twentyfive minutes or half an hour talking about that. You know, we'll getback to you. The same thing can happen with a technical conversation. Youknow, Oh, I'd really like to, you know, solve this problem.Things are getting stuck here on this conveyor when it rounds this corner orsomething. The engineer says, Oh, really, you know, is it? What kind of boxes? You know? Can You oh, well, whatif we did this? What if we put a baffle and BUBB UP? Okay, yeah, you're solutioning, you're not discovering. Yeah, soyou need to be you really need to be disciplined about that, and ourbrains are probably wired to, you know, default to that way of thinking whenwe're in sales or we're a technical person. So you do. Iunderstand why you're saying you kind of have to go in there with very clearintentions. Can and have that top of mine communicate that to the person you'respeaking with. Yeah, it's definitely. Dave. Is there an example orcase study? Whether or not you use a real, you know, companyname is not important to me, but where you could, you could describea situation where doing this kind of voice of customer work produced some kind ofsignificant impact on the organization? Definitely. There's a few in the book butI won't repeat those. I will I'll give you one that is fairly recentand and really interesting too, especially for for manufacturers. So one of myclients that I help with with this voice of customer work is one of thelarger companies involved in the sterilization space. So they manufacture equipment and in someparts of the company solutions and solutions meaning liquid that sterilizes cleaners other things,but they also have machinery that that does this in hospitals and other other allover. Really in business. One of their divisions is really interesting because theymake a product that a lot of people don't know about. Her ever,heard of, which is it vaporizes hydrogen peroxide to sterilize and entire room orspace. So little particles of hydrogen peroxide get put out into a room andin a vapor in several hours or over night, and then literally everything inthe entire room is there for decontaminated. Let's put that. It's the semiscientific word. So this is called VHP. There's an acronym for you. Andso I helped instruct an internal team that looked exactly like what I justsaid to you before. There was a marketing person, technical person, sales. They were involved, and we also talked about segmentation the way I mentionedit, which was application oriented. So instead of just widen net over allthe different ways this v HP is used, because we're going to hear, wewould hear, all sorts of different issues, let's concentrate our efforts andfocus first on one kind of use case...

...and this particular use case. Whatthat I'm thinking of was animal testing labs. So you can imagine that there's whatthat might be like in research, in universities, research labs, thingslike that, and the company had some ideas about Innova, possible innovations.So everything from product tweaks to product overhauls, new products, things like that thatwould, you know, potentially change the game right and went into dothis interviewing, like I mentioned, totally open ended. Okay, no listof questions. Would you like this feature? Would you like this feature? Whatif we did this? Not that at all, just literally just theopposite. And they were very surprised because they came out of it not reallymaking any product changes at all. Everybody said, well, we love theproduct, it's just that it's expensive and we don't have money in our capitalbudgets on it on an annual basis to buy something like this. However,if we were able to lease it, if we were if you were ableto provide a service and come in and do this to con decontamination for us, that would accomplish the same thing. Remember the outcomes. The outcome isthat they want the room decontaminated, not I want a machine to decontaminate.And so by focusing on that outcome and understand it and doing it open endedly, they never would have predicted. They would have gone in with their listof things to improve and they would have probably done in Roi. You know, all the all the numbers and they probably would have made some changes tothe product, but this time they made product changes to service offering and it'sreally started a whole wave within that area that has kind of change change thecompany. That's that's a powerful example there and shows what could have been hadthey just decided to make assumptions or to order rely on that tangential feedback without, as you've described, digging for the desired outcome. You know, yes, the customer sort of just in one off situations what they think they want. They're probably you know, you're not going to get the full picture.So No, and also we all do this. We lead the witness.We've all watched enough, you know, Cork shows to know what that is. It's basically putting words in someone's mouth. And Oh, I'll bet you're havinga problem with this and it's interesting. As humans we want to be,you know, agreeable to others. So a lot of times we justagree. Well, well, yeah, sure course, I guess I amhaving problem with that. And then there's conversation about it. And especially ifsomebody in a company has kind of a pet project or idea. I guaranteeif they went out to the field and ask questions. They could definitely comeback and say, Yep, I definitely verified this, validated it. Customersall said they'd love this, you know, but you led the witness. Yeah, well, leading the witness, I think, can have the effectof almost insecurity for you, as you know, saying, Oh, I'mgoing to assue, I've seen this before, so I'm just going to assume thisis a problem and I'll probably sound smart because I'll sound smarter because I'mrecognizing something that they probably are experience dancing, and then they're going to say,oh my gosh, yes, but in reality, like you said,people wind up being agreeable, whereas if you go in and ask the openended questions, I like, what is the issue you're having? Well,now, instead of demonstrating that you're a...

...know it all, you're demonstrating thatyou're here to listen to them. So I think that has a really positiveimpact as well. Most definitely, I think we tend to think that we'reconsidered, we're perceived as smart by the things we say, but I thinkthat even more powerful is the questions that we ask and how well we listen, and how well we listen. Yeah, because it really comes across that thatwe care and that we're really we're really there to solve the problem.Tell you the what you hear after these meetings, what customers say to you, is astounding. I mean they say, Oh my God, this was anamazing meeting. We've never had a meeting like this. Someone's finally reallylistening to us. And I know that sounds completely cliche, like I madeit up and it's in a role play video or something like that, buthonestly, we hear that all the time. I believe it. Well, let'ssee here, Dave, shift gears for a second here. Most listenersof this show, being a manufacturing people, spend plenty of time at trade shows. Now, two thousand and twenty, of course, is the exception,as we're sitting here in early December of two thousand and twenty recording this, and the first half of next year we can probably assume it's going tobe largely the same. But you know, trade shows will come back around andthey'll probably look different and everything, but they're they're I'm sure they're notgone forever. And I know you've mentioned that you're a fan of using tradeshows to Conduct v OC work, and I was curious if you could speakto that for a moment. Absolutely, I am a big fan of tradeshows. I think there was probably a while where people thought, oh,these are kind of a dinosaur and, especially if you're a manufacturer and it'sa larger trade show, it's expensive. I mean honestly the price tag andhe you know this too, I'm sure, for helping out some of your clients. It's it can be astronomical and when others, especially say a CEOor board of Directors or, you know, private equity or anyone, comes inand like put some magnifying glass over the financials, they're going to seethis line item and say, do we really need to do this? Andyou know what can we do instead? or we'll do it every other yearor we'll just scrap it and, you know, put the money elsewhere.I really I'm a big fan of trade shows because it brings people together thathave a common industry, three need application etc. And it is this interestingcombination of customers and vendors and suppliers. So there's a whole value chain.Usually that's represented either in the booths or in aisles or both. So forVOC at these, I think it can range, you know, depending onwhat you want to do, from pretty formal to extremely informal. Pretty formal, since people are co located, that maybe people you want to talk toyou can get. You can get a suite at a hotel room or whator conference room at that show and do a focus group and conducted in thesame way that you do this open ended work. Or you can just geta room and schedule customers to come in, you know, one after the other. Just set the times up to do these, you know, morein depth one on one or a couple people, couple people voc meetings orlast February and Vegas at the world of concrete show, which is a greatone, I conducted VOC in the my clients booth. So people came byand either I had appointments or I got...

...just people on the fly who wouldbe willing to sit down for a few minutes and talk to us. Getup some amazing insight from them. And then finally, another sort of,I think under utilized, kind of approach would be, you know, sometimesyour competitors are there and you know you can get some good competitor intelligence duringtrade shows as well, either from those competitor boosts or from people you knowtheir customer, competitor customers, and so I've been pretty successful with some ofthat as well. Yeah, I think it's a really great perspective on whatto do with trade shows, because it seems to be a big debate,I think, especially right now. Or they're worth going to and who knowswhat they're going to look like when they come come back around. But youknow, so many companies go there with the goal of scanning lots of badgesand, you know, trying to build build a list of people who probablydon't mostly want to hear from you on the sales front. I have alot of clients who have had a lot of success in trade shows, especiallywith the ones who are in really niche trade shows. But what a greatopportunity to do exactly what you're describing, to just talk to people, youknow, a your building relationships with people in a way that's very different thanwhen you're trying to sell them something, because their guard is down, youknow, and if you make it clear that I'm I am trying to gatherresearch on the industry. And you know the other thing you could do.My marketing brains always on. So a marketing guy here. But what agreat opportunity for you to create some content with your potential future customers, orat least people who are the peers of your potential future customers, to beable to share these insights. You know one tangible example I can give youa one of the earliest interviews, I think it was episode four or fiveof this podcast in kind of mid late summer, was with Danny Gonzalez fromindustrial sage, and they are essentially a video production company that works with theindustrial sector. You should go check them out if you're listening and don't knowthose guys. They're doing really awesome work. But I know they went to Modexlast year and I want to say the films like a hundred videos orsomething like that. They came with some professional equipment, which it doesn't haveto be that. I mean, Geez, your iphone eleven or twelve or whatever'sgot an unbelievable camera at this point, so it doesn't don't need professional equipment. But they interviewed and they might don't know how long they were.My guess is they probably did a lot of five and ten minute interviews withwith manufacturing people and learned a ton built relationships created all kinds of great contentfrom that and you know, like they could have just going in them oror you, or whoever, whoever you are. You can go to atrade show and you can do your normal thing, or you can do thattoo and walk away with so much more. Yeah, absolutely well, Dave,what actionable things should a manufacturing leader who's sitting here listening right now?They can oh man, I gotta, I got to get some of thisstuff in motion here and start doing voice of customer work the right way.What where can they start? What can they do? I think starting isthe most important thing. You can plan forever and think about it, butI'm a big believer in sort of the lean start up approach or design thinkingand learning by doing and just knowing that you're you're not going to be perfectright off the bat, but you're going to get better at it. Soyou dip your toe in the water and you just you just do it.It's sort of the Nike Mantra. And so how could how do you juststart? I think there's a there's a temptation for companies, when they starttheir voc work to think, oh, okay, this is supposed to generateyou know, grow organic growth and innovation. So we're going to go after likenew products in new markets, but my recommendation is actually to go afteryour best customers that know you the best...

...for your, you know, heartaligned products, and try try this process there first. Now the pushback thatyou're going to get, especially from sales, is we know them. We knowthem, we know everything about them. We've been into with them for years. We're not going to learn anything new. They told it. Weknow everything about their prems. Just ignore that, pretend like you know.Just say, okay, well, that's fine, but we're doing it anyway, because I guarantee a hundred percent you there will be new things that comeout that you never would have predicted. It just always happens every time youdo one of these. And so now to prepare for it. That whichis you know, you asked about actionable steps. I mean you could.There's training on on this one that that I kind of utilize. is callednew product blueprinting. You can google that and and there's that methodology, whichis great. There's other reading that you can do about outcome driven innovation fromthere's company called stratagem that run by guy named Tony Olwick that has written somebooks on this. One of them called jobs to be done, I thinkis downloadable from free from their website. So there's lots of resources. Youcan kind of just get informed that are informed and find a find this person, this leader, this moderator, you know, you know who that person. It probably is in your company. So they're probably in like, asI said, marketing or product management, product development, and they're probably extroverted. They're not going to be shy about asking questions customers. They don't haveto already be customer facing, though. I've seen some of the best peopleat this and they've never been in front of customers before, but you putthem in front of customers and it's actually perfect because they they can kind ofplay dumb about asking some of those things that others would assumer sort of stupidquestions, but they're excellent in the probing and the open ended questioning and youknow, it really is effective. So I would say you know actionable,do some reading. If you want to get some training, get some trainingfor a handful people and you know, really just do it. Just startlearn by doing right. Advice, and I love that you included some actualresources in there too. Will make sure to link to those in the shownotes. So well, Dave Man, this is an awesome conversation. Ilove these ones where I feel like I'm learning something on the spot, andthat's the case. I'm sure our listeners are probably thinking the same thing.So really appreciate you doing this pleasure. Loved it. Cool tell our audiencehow they can get in touch with you where they can learn more about youand loomis marketing as well as your new book. Yeah, absolutely. So. There's a website for loomas marketing. It's at Lomas Marketingcom, Lomas marketingand I'm at Dave at Loomis MARKETINGCOM. Anybody can feel free to email meat any time with Qa. Whatever the book is is about serving others,because I my philosophy about business is that that's what why we're in business andit's just most successful companies really that's what they do, and I'm like thatmyself too. So you know, feel free to reach out. I justI love, you know, just kind of talking to people and learning thingsand I will share what I know and resources and networks and things like that. As far as the book, it's up on Amazon now in the candleaddition, if you want it to have a different Ereader, you get thekindle APP for that. And then there's a paperback version the one I heldup earlier, and it's I had a lot of fun with it. Ithink I' look forward to feedback. If it is helpful people, that wouldbe great beautiful. Well, like to...

...say thank you once again to oursponsor, cadenus part solutions, for helping make this episode possible, and Dave, thanks again for taking the time to join me today. You are verywelcome. Welcome, thanks, thanks so much for having me. As forthe rest of you, I hope to catch you on the next episode ofthe Manufacturing Executive. You've been listening to the manufacturing executive podcast. To ensurethat you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcastplayer. If you'd like to learn more about industrial marketing and sales strategy,you'll find an ever expanding collection of articles, videos, guides and tools specifically forB Tob Manufacturers at Gorilla Seventy sixcom learn thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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